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McLaren in Generous Orthodoxy posits that God saves
by judging. If He did not tell us what, where, why, how etc when we're wrong,
we'll never know. He says that God's judgment is very closely allied to His
forgiveness and mercy, so close it's practically the same. After
judgment-forgiveness comes teaching. McLaren also believes (as do I) that being
judged and executed by God in the bible does not automatically mean the person
is in hell. For example, Uzzah who reached out to touch the ark. I don't think
Uzzah is in hell. All we know for sure is that he was removed from earthly
existence.
God is everywhere. God is the light and life of
men. He could have withdrawn his presence or his life or light from rebellious
people. I used to think that's what makes hell hell. But now I think we have to
turn away and create a space of darkness for our chaos because God refuses to
withdraw light and life from us. Now I think it is his constant presence in our
rebellion that makes hell hell.
The Kingdom of God and eternal life begins here and
now. So does hell. Welcome to your future.
Love,
Caroline
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 12:18
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth Talk]
Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpen
Thank you Caroline. It
occurs to me that if salvation, for the most part, is being given Divine
Direction, finding our way. deliverance from self
--- then being "lost " is the very opposite. Nothing
more.
If being lost is having lost our way,
wondering about with nothing to bounce off of except our own ideas, our own
misery -- hell is just that. There are
passages that tell us that we are "dead already" without Christ,
before death, before "hell."
Could it
be?
Hell is not "punishment" or "judgment" IN THE SENSE THAT SUCH
JUDGMENT IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT WE HAVE AND ARE DOING TO
OURSELVES. I believe it was Paul who said that we are "without
excuse." Judgment, i.e. the judgment of God, is merely a
recognition by God of what we have done to and for ourselves.
He might be angry -- but we do not "go to hell" because of
His wrath. We go to hell because of our own stupidy, our own
selfishness. We go to hell because of our total disregard for
OURSELVES. (God gave them over to the lust of their hearts
.. Ro 1:24ff).
God has no decision to make. He just recognizes our destiny. There
is no conflict between the Love of God and the Wrath of God, as I see, because
the wrath of God merely speaks to just how disappointed He is in us ---- AND
THAT IS AN ACTION OF LOVE.
The image of God is more than community. It is more than
relating to others. It is God within us !!! God talked with
Adam -- gave him direction, instruction. Maybe God
communicated with Adam via a still small voice......from the
inside. If the fall is the fall -- If Christ
reconciled us from this fall ----- then, He
became a part of us AGAIN (indwelling). I can't say
this for certain. But we do know that after the sin of the
tree, God was Another -- not a part of Adam. I mean,
God was here and Adam was over there, hiding in the bushes, was he
not? THAT was different. Today, God is not over
there -- He is "in here."
Anyway
JD out loud again (out loud or out
to lunch, right JT ?)
In a message dated 4/12/2005 9:10:42
PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Matt 1:21: For he shall save his people from
their sins.
Sin is something we do to ourselves. It brings death. We are
dead
already.
He saves us from ourselves !!
Matt 8:25 (in the
storm) Lord, save us.
Here, salvation is the work of the Lord from physical disaster.
Matt
16:25 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose
it
Lose of life in this context is self denial. Again, salvation is
deliverance
FROM
SELF.
Matt 18:11 The Son of Man
came to seek and save the
lost.
Here, it means to me "recovery and direction."
(he goes out and recovers
a
sheep that is lost).
I am saved when I received by
the Shepherd and given direction. This
direction (the road map) is within the flock -- (Heb
10:24 let us
stimulate
one another to love and good works -- that is our road
map)
Lk 18:42 Thy faith hath saved thee
(made you well ----- same word as all of the
above)
Salvation, here, is physical healing because of our faith.
I
Pet 3:21 baptism doeth also now save us.
a
personal effort offers "salvation" -- again from ourselves
-- a request for
good
conscience through the resurrection.
Without
Christ, we are lost, of course. I drive and drive, confident
that I can find my own way without directions from Another. In
the end, about to run out of gas (death on the highway) and confused
-- He seeks me out and gives me direction.
Salvation is different from reconciliation. Just
as the Covenant is unilateral, so is reconciliation. Salvation
is somewhat different. Salvation = the proper direction in
life. Hence the need for repentance. If we are headed in
the wrong direction, we need to turn around and go home. In the
parable of the prodigal, the Father WAS there -- in the pigpen
---- and the son knew. He turned to his father in
that pigpen. When he left that pigpen HE WAS HEADED IN THE
RIGHT DIRECTION. He was saved.
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