Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and th...

Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:57:21 -0700

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right � and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, "History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 5-6.)

It was this directive that caused Smith to establish his church in 1830.

It was this directive that caused God (if you believe The Book of Mormon is inspired) to reveal that there are only two churches � the church of the Devil and the church of the Lamb (1 Nephi 14:10).

It was this directive that caused LDS Apostle Orson Pratt to teach that marriages outside of the LDS church were illegal and the children of those marriages are illegitimate.

It was this directive that caused LDS Apostle Charles W. Penrose to state in his Rays of Living Light � Divine Authority that Christian creeds are valueless and that Christendom has no inspired apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers and hence no authority.

It was this directive that caused the LDS church to produce a tract in 1982 titled �Which Church Is Right?� which states that other churches cannot save souls and that they have no divine authority.

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense....Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."( Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 167 - 1858)

Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't know where the Mormon Boys have gone, they've been quiet - must be either busy or overwhelmed - so I can't check with them - but Kevin isn't this the same song and dance Joseph Smith came up with before he found the golden plates that he deciphered with the urim and thummin that later became the Book of Mormon.  Everybody had bad theology and all the Churches were messed up so God
had to enlighten him so he could start all over again and add a whole new book to the Word of God.  jt
 
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:43:19 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Sorry Kevin, I often delete your messages without reading them thoroughly and that one must have zipped by.
 
Because I know bad theology has dogged Christianity from the beginning, and that great theologians (not to mention pastors, elders and the ordinary joes on the pew) have errors in their theology, I would never claim that all I believe is right and true. I remember NT Wright saying 1/3 of what he teaches is probably wrong; the only problem is he didn't know which third. We all laughed when he said that because he is a very good theologian. I doubt his error rate is as high as one third but there is definitely error. If NT Wright has that humility about his great understanding and learning, can I do less? Augustine was reputed to have said, "I was wrong" on his deathbed. C.S. Lewis said the first thing he'll probably say when he gets to heaven is "I was wrong". And I'm far lesser in understanding than these two men.
 
I have great confidence in what I believe about the Person I believe in. But I keep an open mind. Now before you jump on your keyboard and type "so open your brains fall out" I'll add that 23 years immersed in the Word and scripture have left an indelible impression on my brains.
 
Every time I hear something, I remember what I've read in the bible, and what other people have said on the same topic and I come to a reasoned conclusion. I'm sure you do the same. :-)
 
Do you have humility in your theology?
 
Love,
 
Caroline
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and th...

Did you forget these questions?
No answer?

Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 I'm just asking for a little humility. Bereans instead of Thessalonians

Anxious to hear your answers, CW!


Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And what were the "more honorable" Bereans checking Paul's teaching against?  jt
 
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 05:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
When did Paul write?
Romans
Corinthians
etc.
 
When were Matt Mark Luke & John circulated??????
200AD LOL
 
AN even more interesting question is What did they use in Moses time & before???????????

Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Men first began to call upon the name of YHWH in the second generation. (Gen. 4) There was nothing written, just the memory of Adam and Eve and their experiences.
 
At the end of Malachi, this is what the chosen people of YHWH knew:
1) there is only ONE God
2) they are His people
3) the Law governs their lives - He gave it them and it is wonderful
4) Canaan is their promised land
5) if they are good they are blessed, if they are bad they are punished
6) Satan works for God
7) the Messiah is coming to re-establish David's kingdom
 
In the intertestamental period, a couple of things happened
1) new theology of the afterlife, angels and holiness as seen in the Pharisees and Essenes
2) Herodians who had given up on it all
3) Messianic fervor as the temple has been rebuilt
 
After Jesus Christ ascended and within one generation, all that they were taught in the OT will change. They didn't have the New Testament. They were living and working it out. Paul said they didn't need anyone to teach them, they had the spirit of Christ within them. But misunderstanding and bad thinking dogged Paul's ministry. He wrote his letters to rebuke people or correct bad theology or answer basic questions of life. Error in theology will continue to dog Christianity for 2000 years. Having the bible is no guarantee of 100% Truth. Nor is having the bible AND the Holy Spirit. All the great theologians have errors in their theology. Some like John Stott change major ones as they mature in the faith. He no longer believes the suffering in hell is eternal.
 
One Triune God, one compilation of 66 books, thousands of years, thousands of people, several languages and cultures. The one who feels she has understood it all and has 100% Truth is either naive, ignorant, proud or too scared to admit uncertainty. I'm not asking people to throw in their faith. I'm just asking for a little humility. Bereans instead of Thessalonians.
 
God chose to speak in parables and narratives. Funny isn't it there are two groups here who believe the other group does not know their bible and/or refusing to allow their thinking to be corrected by the bible. It's been that way since the day Moses picked up quill and parchment. It shall be with us till the end.
 
Choose you this day which God you will follow.
 
Love,
 
Caroline
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and th...


He is the Word.   You don't mean to say "His Word."  You actually mean to say "The Bible" which was not even in existence in the first century.  How is it that the Gentile Church survived for all those years before the Church decided on the contents of the Bible? 
Jd

 

That is possibly the most ridiculous statement you have made to date, JD.  What do you call the Old Testament??? Good grief.  Izzy

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