Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Wed, 18 May 2005 10:22:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 

I do not understand why you say the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men

when it is so clearly a biblical word and concept used by Paul in the scripture cited.  I do not doubt that in terms of event sin,  you are an example of what is right about The Faith and God's workings within the heart of the believer.  

 

JD when I write these things I am saying what God's Word says and this is what I agree with in my heart; I am not

writing necessarily from my own experience; I am still having to die daily myself.  My flesh nature acts up more than

I like and I pray that I will be quick to repent.

 

But it is a mistake to think that your experience is the same for all who are children of God.  brethren in John's sphere of influence may have had a problem, a falling short, of the practice of brotherly love. Obviously, the Corinthian church had more than one issue including divisive and sectarian bickering.  And I could go on to include criticism recorded in every letter written to members of the first church.   Ephesians 4:17 ff  states clearly that the brethren there had not completely broken away from the pagan life  --   babes in Christ, still carnal.  

 

No Eph 4:17 cautions against walking in the vanity of the mind - however, if we walk after the Spirit we have the

mind of Christ.  We all battle the same things, and there is no sin that is not common to mankind. However, what

is going on in today's Church should not be.  85-90% of pastors, having a problem with pornography tells us that

something is very wrong. If this is where the leadership is walking - what about the people??  Do you suppose these men believe they can be a "carnal christian" and still accepted with God and this is how the enemy snared them??

 

It all goes back to this growth thing.    You imply that 20-40 years is enough time to get it right.  Maybe.   But, if that is a universal truth of some sort,  why is it not a statement of scripture?  Do you understand that I quote scripture, here?  I read "carnal  --  babes" in I Co 3:1 and know that I must, as a student of scripture,  accept the implications implicit in Paul's use of those words.

 

Scripture teaches growing into godliness and holiness; I don't see any exhortation to grow out of sin. We are told to stop it.  If someone is in the habit of stealing, or working as a prostitute, they don't grow out of it. We have to stop participating in behavior that is killing us.

 

Regarding Psalm 51  --   I believe that Psalm 7 was written by David before Nathan paid him The visit and Psalm 51 was written afterwards  -------------   perhaps immediately afterwards.   His contrast of an angry God with a merciful God is profoundly obvious in the two psalms.   Both statements are his opinion of God. 

 

And both are true; David gives a very vivid description of what it was like to hold on to his sin (during the year he was in denial) "When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me; my moisture is turned into the drought of summer.  I acknowledged my sin unto thee and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin" (Psalm 32:3-5)  

 

 It is interesting to me that the arrogant Daivd (Psalm 7)  remained a sinner and fully capable of the most disgusting of sins;  a man who shouted out about the angry God and harsh judgment UNTIL the finger is pointed in his face.

 

I don't believe David was ever arrogant - God chose him because he was a man after his own heart. He had some

problems yes - lust being one of them and after his transgression with Bathsheba it took him a long time to deal  

with it and he suffered.

 

After Nathan's judgment,   David appeals to a merciful God and acknowledges the this same God, the Giver of the Law, is more interested in brokenness and contrition of heart than He is of obedience (51:16-17). 

 

I don't read this as God not being interested in obedience; right then in David's life what was important was a broken spirit; and a broken and a contrite heart. David calls them the sacrifices of God because these are also a gift but note they were not given until David agreed with God and became transparent about his sin. 

 

 That is not to say that God cares not for obedience.   There is a place for such and de sire in His heart for obedience in the  life of those who follow Him  --   but before obedience can work,  the lesson of contrition must be received. 

 

To obey is better than sacrifice - honesty and transparency are where it is at and walking in carnality won't cut it.  

 

JD

 

 

 

 

 

 
Judy wrote:

JD the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men; when Paul wrote this to the Corinthians who were in all kinds of envy, strife, and disunity, I for one am convinced that he was not starting a "Carnal Christian" doctrine so that we could stay in our filth.  This "babe in Christ" thing is a bit much after being a believer for 20-40yrs - kind of like the idea of "sinning that grace may abound"  Hebrews teaches us that "the earth that drinketh in the rain (doctrine) that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed receiveth blessing from God. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned" (Heb 6:7,8)

 

Being burned is not a blessing.  What does Psalm 51 have to do with God being angry every day with sinners?  jt

 

 

On Tue, 17 May 2005 21:01:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]com writes:

The same writer who gave us Romans also wrote I cor 3:! which makes it clear that there are carnal Christians  ----------    babes in Christ.   Is God happy or pleased to realize that there are those who have not progressed as He would prefer?   Of course.   Are carnal saints pleasing to God?   Nope.  But they are "babes" nonetheless......  having life in the family of God.   The contrast between Ps 7 and Ps 51 remains. 

 

JD

 

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[EMAIL PROTECTED]com wrote:

Probably the grandest lesson ofthe biblical message is that found in the contrast of law to grace through faith and all that such includes (the failure of the law, the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.)  The truth of that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion with Caroline and others.  

 

Regarding Psalm 7:11   --   you press the point that David thinks or writes in this verse that God is angry a good deal of the time.   That is David's opinion about God.   In his legalism   (David's legalism), he somehow has confidence in the wrath of God 

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The carnal mind is enmity against God.  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  For as many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God.  To be carnally minded is death.  (Little plums from Romans eight, new testament)