RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[ShieldsFamily]

One note for both of you.  The “curse of the law” is the curse of NOT obeying the law---obey and you avoid the curses, which are manifold—sickness included.  If you are a true Believer and don’t obey the Law you will still go to heaven—just sooner.  Izzy   Jn 14: 15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.    21"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will (AI)disclose Myself to him."     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 3:50 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit   On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:25:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinning JD.  The curse is still all over those ppl and they are wearing it.  Sickness is the curse of the law.   The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death).    jt: Not so JD; spiritual death is what happened when A&E fell at the beginning.   Deut 28:20.   Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28  --  but it is sickness unto death  “…until you are destroyed, until you perish quickly …..” (v 20).    jt: Yes, Deuteronomy is written to a ppl who are already spiritually dead and the death it refers to is physical death which may come from a sickness unto death. Sin and sickness have always been connected so far as God is concerned but this generation ignores this fact and our doctrines explain it away.   In Christ,  “He has [tasted] death for everyone  (Heb 2), the implication being that death has been destroyed.     jt: But death has not been completely eradicated. How many ppl do know who have diabetes, cancer, etc. These are diseases unto death brought on by sins unto death, either generational or other.   More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered powerless by the cross  ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the “fear of death”  (2:15).   jt: He should have been rendered powerless by the cross; the only power he has over our lives  presently is what we give him - which is too much.     Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words: “Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death”  (Jo 8:51).    jt: The operative word above is "IF" - What about those who use His name but do not keep His Word?   Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also.    Interesting tactic, here, Judy.  You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the discussion !!!   “By following your (me) reasoning  --“ss so far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely funny.  I do not believe the curse of the Law is sickness;  it is death or the fear of death.    jt: It is also sickness leading to physical death; read all of Deuteronomy 28; God says if we won't serve Him then we will serve our enemies (Deut 28:48) and not only our own body will be cursed but that of our children and our produce as well.  Satan is our enemy or adversary so we will find ourselves serving him.  This is the part of the gospel that you and Lance ignore.  It's not so something is amiss.  The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in Christ. We must now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to be found "in Him"   Where in scripture do I find this requirement – that I must fulfill the Law as Christ did.   Your doctrine of works is a failure’s doctrine  -  offering no hope and placing one back under bondage.   jt:  I don't have any "works" doctrine per se JD but what does Jesus mean in Rev 22:12 when he says "Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".  Paul knew about this and was practicing it in his own life when he wrote (I believe it is in 2 Cor) that he is not under the law to God but under the law to Christ which would be what James calls the royal law or the law of love. Since this is much more stringent than the Mosaic Law I can't see how you figure that in some sense we are off the hook.   The contrast is law verses Spirit.If righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain, David.    jt: Noone is saying that righteousness comes by way of the Law JD; the Law was not given for this purpose.    Therefore, the faith of Christ is presented in the place of righteousness (or the lack there of).  The very purpose of the Law sealed its fate  --  for through the Law I died to the Law that I might live to God.     jt: The purpose of the Law is to show us how desperately we need a Savior, Redeemer - I don't know where you would get the idea that God's Word has a "fate"   More than a contrast between law and Spirit, the biblical text speaks of faith verses Law  ..  the incumbent rewards of abiding in the Law is not a demonstration of faith  -   rather, such rewards are the result of indebtedness.     jt: God Himself does not pit faith against His Law; this is done by doctrines of men.    It is God through Paul who makes the contrast:  “Where then is boasting?  It is excluded.  By what kind of law?   Of works (the Old Law) No, but by a law of faith.  I, personally, think it too strong to state that the Law is “pit” against faith.  Nonetheless, faith is in stark contrast to Law.    How is faith in stark contrast to law since it is not possible for someone who is lawless to be walking in faith and the only reason Old Covenant ppl could not keep God's Law was because of the weakness of the flesh for which we have now been given "dunamis" or power from heaven so that we are now able to fulfill God's Law in or through Christ.   It all goes to purpose, Judy.   The only reason Old Covenant ppl could not keep God’s Law was because righteousness was never the ultimate purpose of the law for “if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law” (Gal 3:21b)  ….  The Law has become our tutor  .. to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith …. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor  (Gal 3:24-25).    Shall we sin then that grace may abound???????????   God could have empowered the ppl at any time to live in accordance with the Law.  Christ did not need to die if that were the issue.  The fact of the matter is this – the law was never for the purpose of justification.  “…if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died in vain”  (Gal 2:21).   jt: This is what I have been saying JD .. ie that the law was never for the purpose of justification ... I don't believe God would have violated his own holiness and/or his own Word to bypass his standard by empowering spiritually dead ppl to do what was alien to their nature.  Even though they did it imperfectly, in attempting to keep His Law, they were following Him in His way by their own volition.   That which was presented in Jere 31:31-34 as a promise had its beginnings in the time of Abraham and before the Law. The law, then, was only a tutor, leading us to the time when we would be justified through faith, leading us to Christ.   As a tutor, the Law was temporary.     jt: God's Word is eternal JD; the Levitical system is what was temporary. You have only man’s opinion of this, Judy.    jt: No scripture speaks of the eternal nature of God's Word.   We are not children of the law (the bondswoman) ; rather and in contrast, we are children of the free woman.    jt: The allegory above (bondswoman) represents the works of the flesh and has nothing to do with God's Law which is spiritual.  Tell it to someone who has not read these words, “………….Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia  …….”  (Gal. 4:25).     jt: Paul uses the two women as an allegory   Let me ask you a questions:  Does He, then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?”  This is the same question Paul asked of the Galatians in 3:5.     jt: In Galatians 3:5 Paul refers to himself. since he is the one working miracles among them.   They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return to the law.    These folk are converted Gentiles.   They are not Jews.  Yet, there are those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law.   jt: They had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh and spirit, not the law and Christ.   They had the power  --   and Paul is saying, do not choose law over Spirit.     jt: No, he is exhorting them to get out of the flesh and back into walking after the Spirit, says nothing about the Law.   Your gospel whould tell these folks, “Use the power of the indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the Law.   Do not reject what God has given !!  Embrace it and live it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.”  None of that is found in the letter  -  yet this is your message.   Snip snip, Judy.     jt: No JD, my gospel would not tell these ppl anything of the sort; lawless ppl are not living in the power of the Holy Ghost, they are off on their own, doing their own thing.   The really bad news in all this is found in this fact:  to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.    jt: The Levitical system is finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh is one and the same. Keep the law, if you will DM  --   as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  The Bishop   jt: If you are trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off JD   The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life.  To think otherwise is heretical at best, and heretical in the lest.     jt: To be talking Christ and walking in the flesh makes you no better off than the "foolish Galatians" and this has nothing to do with God's Law other than the mind of the flesh is an enemy of Gods and cannot please Him.  You need the mind of the Spirit and to walk after the Spirit so that you don't fulfill the lust of the flesh.