Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[Judy Taylor]



 

 

On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:36:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You refer to Romans 8:2.   You need to be careful, here, Judy, not to have Paul in Romans contradicting Paul in Galatians.  Romans 8:2 is to be considered along with the larger context and (especially) vers 3.   If you look to verse three, you will discover that the Law's weakness (our fleshly failure to comply with its charge) is corrected by by the work of the Incarnate Christ in His death (His offering for sin) . 

 

jt: Paul does not ever contradict himself and I'm not contradicting him either.  Sin in the flesh has been condemned (Romans 7:9) and I agree that Christ became an offering for sin but not so that we could hold on to it. 

 

In 7:25, Paul concludes that his service is divided.  He serves God with his mind while his flesh serves the law of sin  (and death). 

 

jt: Not exactly JD; Paul said in Romans 7:17 that sin was dwelling in him, not that his flesh served sin; he said the law of sin was in his members. This is the result of the fall that you (so far as I can tell) dispute. But Paul did not serve

that law.

 

The contrast is between his mind and his flesh.   Paul "redefines" the idea of "spirit " and "flesh" in Ro 8:5 when he tells us that that those who are in the "flesh" are those who have their minds set on things of the flesh while those "in the Spirit" are those who have their minds set on things of the Spirit. 

 

jt: You are complicating things here JD.  Mind and flesh are different from Spirit and flesh because the mind is part of the soul and Heb 4:12 tells us that soul and spirit can be divided. Therefore the spirit is not the mind. Man is triune.

 

And then he says (v10) this: " And if Christ is in you (if your mind is set on things of the Spirit), though THE BODY IS DEAD Because OF SIN (as judged by the law) yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness  (the righteousness of Christ Jesus v 3). 

 

jt: Nothing happens by osmosis JD; the mind is not set on the spiritual unless this is our choice (daily) and it is carnal

until we determine to renew it in God's Word (by the Law you spurn) - Also Jesus fulfilling the Law is only the first part;

the requirements of the Law must also be fulfilled IN US (Romans 8:4)

 

This Perichoresis you resist, this restorative gospel you reject is really nothing more than the full accounting of the gospel message.  

 

jt: It's a twisted accounting of the gospel message making the covenant one sided. There must be a death on the part of both.  When Abraham accepted God's call he left all he was familiar with and died to everything he had known. Same

with us, we must die to carnality and our old unregenerated flesh nature and walk after the Spirit as per Romans 8:1b (in the majority text).

 

At the center of this thinking is Jesus Christ  --  in a way that is not the case in any other theology.   That is exactly what is so appealing to me as a disciple.  

 

jt: It's the same as die hard Calvinism - it's a theology that puts everything off on God and expects nothing from us. This has never been God's way.  Relationship can not be one sided.

 

Here you have yet another example of such.   The law's "failure" is our flesh.  What saves us from the sad conclusion of this, our failure, is  not empowerment to suddenly live a perfect life as defined by the Law  -  but the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.  Our bodies remain dead because of sin but our spirit is alive IN CHRIST.  JD

 

jt: Redemption in Christ does not mean that we follow on in bondage to the old dead flesh with a little "live" spirit

hidden inside.  Jesus is coming for a Church without spot, wrinkle, or blemish, and our spirit, soul, and body should

be found blameless at His coming (1 Thess 5:23)

 

From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]com

JD What is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ?

What is the law of sin and death? 

How do they differ?  jt

 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:40 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law.  Read her posts, sometime.  JD 

 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law.  She is speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God.  You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton

I showed you in scripture ,Judy.  If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.
You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).
Terry


Judy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong?  Can you show me in scripture where I

am missing it?  judyt

 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ.  Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11).  God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God.  If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai.  jt

 

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy.  The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel".  No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew.  Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us whenever we break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will reap as we sow.  It is not necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere.  We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh nature dead.  This is the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically.  The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and does not deal with these issues.  jt

 

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing.  Neither of you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry