[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[Judy Taylor]

   On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:33:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Romans 8:4 is not talking about a righteousness that comes from obeying the Law, whether with the Spirit or otherwise.  Rather, it is talking about a righteousness that is attributed to us because of the events of the Incarnation and the cross.  RED FLAG!! Speaking of red flags  --   what about establishing your doctrine about the Levitical Law with absolutely nothing but your imagination   --  not that imagination is bad  ??   jt: Exactly what is this "imaginative" doctrine about the Levitical Law that you refer to JD?  Romans 8:4-8 says nothing about any "incarnation" it reads:  "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Whoa there Neilly !!!   verse 4 actually reads ?that the righteous requirements of The Law  ??  and what are those requirements?   Well, in a practical sense, these retirements all have to do with Christ and His sacrifice.  (see v 3)   jt: Vs.3 does not refer to Calvary where Christ was made an eternal Sacrifice for sin. He fulfilled the Law in his daily life by walking in love and obedience first toward God and then toward others and this is the example that He left for us to follow (1 Peter 2:24). See how twisted your "incarnational" doctrine is JD?  If Romans 8:4 referred to Calvary then the righteousness of the law would never ever be fulfilled in us or anyone else because He is the only one who qualified for that ministry. No, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit and who do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. So Christ performed so that the righteous requirements of the Law (things we could not or did not do) might fulfilled in us.   This has nothing to do with being righteous by right of our own doing  --  it was Christ on the cross that made us righteous  !!!    Walk in the flesh  (verse) is given definition in verse 54, Judy.   Who are those who walk in the flesh?   Those who do the deeds of the flesh?  Nope.  It is those who set their MINDS ON THE FLESH.     jt: We may not have been able to do them before the cross because of the weakness of the fallen flesh nature but we can do them now because we have received "dunamis" or power from on high.  The ones who Christ made righteous are those who "DO" righteousness (1 John 3:7) not those who have conventions and talk about the "incarnation" - The flesh is not a mindset only JD, the flesh has deeds also and they are listed in Galatians 5:19; have you not heard the following saying.  Sow a thought, reap an act, Sow an act, reap a habit, Sow a habit, reap a lifestyle?    Who are those who are of the Spirit?  Those, in this context, who do spiritual THINGS?   No again.  It is those who set their minds on the Spirit.   Romans 12, therefore, speaks of the renewing of our minds  --  precisely because of this (new) definition.  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh can not please God"   jt: Yes and..... Well, a hearty AMEN to this !!  Paul continues his theme and purpose in this 8th   chapter. Continuing to speak of what we think rather than how we act.   jt: Evil thoughts lead to evil actions and those who live in Galatians 5:19 DO NOT inherit the Kingdom of God no matter what doctrine they are holding in their right hand...     Remember, in 7:25, he just got through saying that we do not ACT  so great??? with the FLESH  we serve the law of sin and death.  Where  is the hope?   It is in the definition  !!!    there are two levels of carna l involvement: one is that which has to do with activity and the other is that which has to do with the mind.   In Romans 1:24, they were given over (by God) to the lusts of their??????? flesh?   No ? to the lusts of their heart (an I see heart and mind as the same thing in scripture).   Disobedience to parents is on this list of those given over to the lusts of their heart.   It is one thing to be disobedient to your parents;  it is quite another matter to be given over, in your mind, to disobeying your parents.   In the former case, you commit sin.   The later case, you are given over, you are  completely controlled by your desires in a particular area  (and there are 26 of them in this list.)    jt: Are we straining at gnats here JD?  Lust is lust and the fruit of lust is more lust; does not matter where it is found, it always spreads like yeast in bread dough.  Romans 1 describes the gentile nations who God gave over to fleshly desires because this was their life choice and He will always give us over to our own desires in the end. How do I know? (a)  Because this the  very point made in the preceding verse  (that would be verse 3)  jt: Verse 3 says that by sending His Son in the likeness of flesh, condemned sin in the flesh; it says nothing about any incarnation. Stop with this empty criticism, Judy.   Your own people at BSF speak of the Incarnation .   It is heresy to deny it.    jt: BSF speaks of the incarnation as historical fact - which in fact it is; they have never made a doctrine of it which denies the judgment of God against sin in individuals and negates the ongoing work of sanctification in the life of the believer.