I have only objected to your denying that you do so
DAVEH: ??? I have not denied explaining what I believe on TT,
Perry. Where did you get that idea??? What I did say Perry....I did
not come to TT to preach/teach Mormonism. I've tried to steer clear
of quoting LDS passages other than the Bible. But you, Kevin and other
TTers seem to want to focus on discussing LDS theology. In the case
below, I realized I had to discuss (teach if you wish) LDS concepts to
answer Terry's question. I have stipulated before that in answering
people's questions about my beliefs, the effect is that I am teaching
them what I believe. However, that does not change my reason for being
here.....which is not to teach Mormonism. FTR, I will repeat this
again so that you will hopefully understand, Perry. I did not come to
TT to preach/teach Mormonism. Nor do I remain here to preach or teach
it. But it does seem to be an inevitable part of being here, due to
that which is posted about me and my beliefs, and the subsequent
questions that are asked.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, I have never minded you teaching on mormonism...I
have only objected to your denying that you do so...but our
differences are setted...you admit below that you are teaching
mormonism on TT, which I don't mind, but you can never again say you
don't.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Goofy
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:48:41 -0700
Terry Clifton wrote:
The other day, in a response to Perry, I stated that what the Mormons
believe is goofy. Lance felt that was inappropriate and though he did
not say so, I assume that Dave H felt the same. This note is not to
apologise. Goofy was the best descrition that I could think of at the
time.
DAVEH: I've got no problem with your term goofy, Terry. Actually it
accurately describes what was described to you as my belief.
Unfortunately, it does not accurately portray my belief. That is why
it was explained as it was....to make it sound goofy. Has it ever
occurred to you that the folks who post goofy sounding stuff may have
an agenda and are trying to spin the message in order to influence the
reader to believe in a particular way? Have you ever wondered why LDS
folks like Blaine or me believe such goofy stuff as you've seen posted?
Let me suggest that perhaps what you've seen posted is not quite
what we believe. And, let me suggest that though we may believe things
that seem goofy to you, we have explanations of why we believe as we do
that may not be as goofy as you might think. I think that is one
reason Mormonism appeals to some folks. They hear how goofy it is, but
when they sincerely look into it and find out what we really believe
and why we believe it....it doesn't seem so goofy after all.
The thinking by some is that we are all in error to some degree, so why
single out the Mormons?
DAVEH: Because that is the nature of some in this group. Pick the
big targets and denigrate them to make them sound so goofy that nobody
will believe anything they say. If they can dispense with the big
targets, then perhaps they will then turn to smaller targets. But as
long as the Mormons hang around TT, I suspect you are relatively safe,
Terry.
For me,Kevin and Perry have posted any number of good reasons,
DAVEH: Does it occur to you that they may be trying to grind an ax,
and that when doing so their posts are sharpened to use to decapitate
their foes rather than discern truth?
but the thing that sticks in my craw is
that the Mormons claim that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
DAVEH: Are you sure that's what you heard the Mormons claim? Or are
you just thinking that's what Mormons have claimed simply because
you've heard it so often from anti-Mormons who want you to believe
such? I've explained the LDS perspective on this before, and I will do
so again since you have a problem with it. I hope that Perry will be
kind enough not to criticize me for teaching a little Mormonism at this
juncture.
I belief our Heavenly Father spiritually created us (you, me, Jesus,
Lucifer and all the angels of heaven) in a pre-mortal spiritual state.
Jesus is the firstborn of his Father in Heaven. He was foreordained to
be God and the creator of our physical existence. Do you agree with
that, Terry? Either way you believe, let me just explain that is why I
consider Jesus to be our Elder Brother. The rest of us, including the
angels of heaven, Lucifer and those of us who have been born into
mortality, were spiritually created after Jesus. Lucifer endeavored to
usurp Jesus' power, and subsequent to the heavenly battle fought over
that power, Lucifer and his minions denounced the Lord and were ejected
from heaven. Roughly, that is the basis for why some non-LDS folks
conclude that Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus.
Terry, how would you feel if I said that you believe God is the
author of evil? Would you not be somewhat offended that I would
conclude such, and that I would tell others that's what you believe?
Well....why would I ever say such a thing. Let me give you the logic
similar to what Kevin has been using to convince you that I believe
Jesus and Satan are brothers. You believe God created
everything...correct? So...you believe God created Satan, and
therefore God created evil. Hence, I could conclude (in error) that
you believe God is the author of evil. Does my analogy make sense to
you, Terry?
This is a terrible sin. It is lying
about God. Jesus Christ is the creator of all things. Without Him,
nothing was made that was made. Satan is a created being, not a god,
not a human, he is an angel and the most evil angel ever created. To
make him a brother to Jesus is to elevate Satan to a god and to demote
Jesus to the status of angel.
DAVEH: Ohhhhh........I should have read further before giving my
previous example. Maybe you do believe Jesus is the author of
evil??? Correct me if I am wrong, Terry.
Now from my previous (above) explanation, I hope you realize that I
consider Jesus to be God from the time he was spiritually created by
his Father in Heaven. And yes, I realize that we will differ on that
aspect of Jesus, but that is a tangent to this discussion. Jesus was
foreordained to be our Savior, and Lucifer was not. Lucifer was not
God. He fought against God, and was ejected from heaven for his denial
of the Lord's power. I do not know why you think we elevate Satan to
the level of God. I can only assume you have incorrectly concluded
such because of what Kevin may have posted in an effort to make you
think that is what I believe.
If any person teaches this, they are a
false teacher and are going to spend eternity in Hell.
DAVEH: Are you referring to those who are trying to convince you that
I believe that which I don't?
Dave Hansen is nice to us and we should
be nice to him.
DAVEH: I appreciate that, Terry. I don't expect you to agree with my
beliefs, but I would appreciate you asking me what I believe before you
presume that which somebody else says accurately portrays my beliefs.
We must love him, but allowing him to
think this lie is truth is not loving.
DAVEH: That is exactly why I am trying to explain to you what I
believe....so that you will no longer believe the lies that are
perpetrated about what I believe.
I would offend him every hour of every
day if it would bring him to Christ.
Terry
DAVEH: I sincerely appreciate your concern for my eternal welfare,
Terry.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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