Dave, you have it all wrong. You frequently either do not understand my
position and present it incorrectly, even after I have corrected you, or
else you are intentionally trying to misrepresent my beliefs and what I say.
First, I am not anti-mormon, I am anti-mormonism. There is a difference,
which although I have explained it to you,which you refuse to acknowledge. A
MORMON is someone who follows MORMONISM. I am not against those people. I am
against what they follow: MORMONISM. So, you can call me ANTI-MORMONISM if
you like. If you continue to refer to me as ANTI-MORMON from this point on,
not only will you be stating a falsehood, but I will assume you are
intentionally trying to misrepresent what I am against.
Secondly, I have NEVER said that satan is equal to jesus or that you
believe that. You are terribly mistaken if you think that. I have said that
Satan and Jesus are BROTHERS! Even you agree with that. That is all. Stop
trying to put words in my mouth and misrepresenting what I say.
Finally, I have been to Jeff Lindsey's website on several occasions and
have read various apologies of his. He not only sounds quite convinced, but
even at times sounds quite convincing. But, as with all mormon apologists I
have read, such as Nibly and Reynolds, they all ASSUME that what they are
researching is true, then weave a story that supports it, regardless of the
facts.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Goofy
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:47:04 -0700
DAVEH: I've been debating with myself whether to violate my own self
imposed embargo on discussing LDS theology with you, Perry. Rather than
just let this go at this point, let me say that I believe anti-Mormons want
to promote the idea that Mormons believe Satan is equal to Jesus. As I
tried to explain in my brief explanation to Terry, that is not the case at
all. For a much better explanation of what I was trying to convey, read
the second topic (and the first topic is closely related, as well) of Jeff
Lindsay's treatise on the accusation.......
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml
......Hopefully that will put the discussion in the proper perspective.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
So, David, you admit that you DO believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers
(although you did not say it directly, following your somewhat circular
argument, you implied it)? Why all the hoopla just to confirm that? Why
all the questioning whether Terry really believes it, or if he believes it
because that is what Kevin and I are trying to make Terry think, or
whatever you said.
Lets face it. Kevin and I said it. Terry understood it. You admitted it.
Why all the accusations? We present what we have learned about the mormon
faith, mostly from your own leaders, and believe it to be the truth about
what you believe. We are not intentionally trying to mislead...we are
intentionally trying to inform. So, if we say something that is not true,
tell us. Don't go mealy-mouth couching-it-in-some-indirect-non-descript
maybe-it-is-and-maybe-it-isn't way to try to disguise it.
If Kevin and I do not present the truth of mormonism, the "meat" of the
faith, the disgusting aspects like the brotherhood of Satan and jesus,
that mormons do NOT want to reveal, then who will? You certainly won't. Is
there no help for the widow's son?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Goofy
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:48:41 -0700
Terry Clifton wrote:
The other day, in a response to Perry, I stated that what the Mormons
believe is goofy. Lance felt that was inappropriate and though he did
not say so, I assume that Dave H felt the same. This note is not to
apologise. Goofy was the best descrition that I could think of at the
time.
DAVEH: I've got no problem with your term goofy, Terry. Actually it
accurately describes what was described to you as my belief.
Unfortunately, it does not accurately portray my belief. That is why it
was explained as it was....to make it sound goofy. Has it ever occurred
to you that the folks who post goofy sounding stuff may have an agenda
and are trying to spin the message in order to influence the reader to
believe in a particular way? Have you ever wondered why LDS folks like
Blaine or me believe such goofy stuff as you've seen posted?
Let me suggest that perhaps what you've seen posted is not quite what
we believe. And, let me suggest that though we may believe things that
seem goofy to you, we have explanations of why we believe as we do that
may not be as goofy as you might think. I think that is one reason
Mormonism appeals to some folks. They hear how goofy it is, but when
they sincerely look into it and find out what we really believe and why
we believe it....it doesn't seem so goofy after all.
The thinking by some is that we are all in error to some degree, so why
single out the Mormons?
DAVEH: Because that is the nature of some in this group. Pick the big
targets and denigrate them to make them sound so goofy that nobody will
believe anything they say. If they can dispense with the big targets,
then perhaps they will then turn to smaller targets. But as long as the
Mormons hang around TT, I suspect you are relatively safe, Terry.
For me,Kevin and Perry have posted any number of good reasons,
DAVEH: Does it occur to you that they may be trying to grind an ax, and
that when doing so their posts are sharpened to use to decapitate their
foes rather than discern truth?
but the thing that sticks in my craw is that the Mormons claim that
Jesus and Satan are brothers.
DAVEH: Are you sure that's what you heard the Mormons claim? Or are
you just thinking that's what Mormons have claimed simply because you've
heard it so often from anti-Mormons who want you to believe such? I've
explained the LDS perspective on this before, and I will do so again
since you have a problem with it. I hope that Perry will be kind enough
not to criticize me for teaching a little Mormonism at this juncture.
I belief our Heavenly Father spiritually created us (you, me, Jesus,
Lucifer and all the angels of heaven) in a pre-mortal spiritual state.
Jesus is the firstborn of his Father in Heaven. He was foreordained to
be God and the creator of our physical existence. Do you agree with
that, Terry? Either way you believe, let me just explain that is why I
consider Jesus to be our Elder Brother. The rest of us, including the
angels of heaven, Lucifer and those of us who have been born into
mortality, were spiritually created after Jesus. Lucifer endeavored to
usurp Jesus' power, and subsequent to the heavenly battle fought over
that power, Lucifer and his minions denounced the Lord and were ejected
from heaven. Roughly, that is the basis for why some non-LDS folks
conclude that Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus.
Terry, how would you feel if I said that you believe God is the
author of evil? Would you not be somewhat offended that I would conclude
such, and that I would tell others that's what you believe?
Well....why would I ever say such a thing. Let me give you the logic
similar to what Kevin has been using to convince you that I believe Jesus
and Satan are brothers. You believe God created everything...correct?
So...you believe God created Satan, and therefore God created evil.
Hence, I could conclude (in error) that you believe God is the author of
evil. Does my analogy make sense to you, Terry?
This is a terrible sin. It is lying about God. Jesus Christ is the
creator of all things. Without Him, nothing was made that was made.
Satan is a created being, not a god, not a human, he is an angel and the
most evil angel ever created. To make him a brother to Jesus is to
elevate Satan to a god and to demote Jesus to the status of angel.
DAVEH: Ohhhhh........I should have read further before giving my
previous example. Maybe you do believe Jesus is the author of evil???
Correct me if I am wrong, Terry.
Now from my previous (above) explanation, I hope you realize that I
consider Jesus to be God from the time he was spiritually created by his
Father in Heaven. And yes, I realize that we will differ on that aspect
of Jesus, but that is a tangent to this discussion. Jesus was
foreordained to be our Savior, and Lucifer was not. Lucifer was not
God. He fought against God, and was ejected from heaven for his denial
of the Lord's power. I do not know why you think we elevate Satan to the
level of God. I can only assume you have incorrectly concluded such
because of what Kevin may have posted in an effort to make you think that
is what I believe.
If any person teaches this, they are a false teacher and are going to
spend eternity in Hell.
DAVEH: Are you referring to those who are trying to convince you that I
believe that which I don't?
Dave Hansen is nice to us and we should be nice to him.
DAVEH: I appreciate that, Terry. I don't expect you to agree with my
beliefs, but I would appreciate you asking me what I believe before you
presume that which somebody else says accurately portrays my beliefs.
We must love him, but allowing him to think this lie is truth is not
loving.
DAVEH: That is exactly why I am trying to explain to you what I
believe....so that you will no longer believe the lies that are
perpetrated about what I believe.
I would offend him every hour of every day if it would bring him to
Christ.
Terry
DAVEH: I sincerely appreciate your concern for my eternal welfare,
Terry.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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