Re: [TruthTalk] Belief

[Dave Hansen]

David Miller wrote: DAVEH: I think you are taking my example out of context, DavidM. I was trying to point out that right or wrong, I believe most knowledgeable LDS folks tend to be a little more homogeneous in their beliefs than do TTers. So, I can find cults that are even more homogeneous than Mormons. Are you sure you don't have any inkling that Mormons might be more right because of this homogeneity? DAVEH:   While I may think LDS theology is right, that is not the point of what I was trying to convey.  Right or wrong, within homogeneous communities I believe there is a sense of direction that TTers really don't have.  I really don't see a unity of faith in TT.  (FWIW....The only unity I see here is in opposition to Mormonism.....it is the old we don't necessarily agree on what is true, but we do agree that Mormonism is false line of thinking!)   I hope I don't offend anybody with what I am next going to say, but as I see it the (presumed theological) intellect of TTers is the main obstacle to their conformity.   I believe that most intelligent people in Jesus' day were less receptive to his unifying message than those who had less knowledge than they had faith.   That's not to say that smart folks won't end up in heaven, but perhaps it will be as difficult for them as it is for rich folks to find their way there. DaveH wrote: ...From my perspective, it seems like you (non-LDS) are ignoring/misinterpreting Biblical evidence that pretty significantly illustrates that Jesus is was not only the firstborn (created) in a literal sense, but that he was also anointed to be God and creator of our physical realm....something that is unique amongst all our Heavenly Father's creation. The concept of being anointed to be God is very foreign to most of us. Any Scriptural justification for this, either Biblical or non-Biblical? DAVEH:   Why would it be foreign to most TTers?  From your posts, it appears you have a grasp of its importance.  Are you suggesting most TTers don't understand the meaning of Messiah?   Hmmmmm.....now that I think about it from your perspective, I guess you wouldn't accept that Jesus was anointed to be God, as I do.  Right off hand, I can't think of any scriptural justification from the Bible, but I think there is some from LDS scripture.   I'd have to think about it and do some page turning.  Let me know if you want me to dig up something. DaveH wrote: But as sons of God, we had the same roots of our Elder Brother. Same request: please supply Scriptural justification, either Biblical or non-Biblical. I understand how he is my elder brother because of the incarnation, but not in how we had the same roots prior to any mortal existence. I see our roots as very different. DAVEH:   I understand that.  As you know, my view of his brotherhood predates the incarnation.  I think the fundamental difference here is that I believe we were spiritually created in the pre-mortal existence.  Rather than turn this into a big LDS related theology discussion, let me confine it to the Bible and mention a few passages that I believe is related to our paradigm...... 1)   Num 16:22   God is God of the spirits of all flesh  (an oblique reference that our spirits existed before they took on mortal bodies of flesh) 2)   Heb 12:9   Confirmation that God is the father of our spirits 3)   Acts 17:28-29  Further confirmation that we are the offspring of God 4)   Eph 1:4-5 & Tit 1:2  Paul tells us the Lord made promises to us before the world began  (would it not be reasonable to think we were there when those promises were made?) 5)   Job 1:6   Son's of God and Satan meet with the Lord  (a council meeting with the Lord of the above mentioned spirits and Satan) 6)   Gen 6:2  Son's of God marry daughters of men  (the spirit children take on mortal lives) 7)   Ecc 12:7  Spirits return to God  (indicates the beginning of our return journey home) 8)   Jn 3:13   Nobody goes heaven except those who come from heaven, as did Jesus 9)    Jn 9:1-3   The Lord's disciples understood that tt would have been hard for the guy to sin before he was born had he not pre-mortally existed .......Now I realize that you have different ways of understanding the above passages.   In conjunction with latter-day scripture, I find them a very compelling argument to support my beliefs. DaveH wrote: ... to be vehemently critical of our somewhat odd beliefs strikes me as curious when you folks seem to struggle with the sonship question, which is seemingly so simple from our theological perspective. It is very simple from my theological perspective too. Problem is that not everyone sees it as simply as I do. :-) DAVEH:   Which is exactly the observation I've been making. DaveH wrote: What is so hard about literally believing Jesus is literally the firstborn of our Heavenly Father? Because I don't see where Scripture refers to him as the firstborn of our Heavenly Father. Firstborn refers to his humanity, his relationship with man, and his being placed far above all other men. DAVEH:   Paul doesn't seem to frame it that way in Col 1:15 when he refers to Jesus as being the firstborn of every creature.  And yes, I realize that 3 verses later he is also referred to as the firstborn of the dead.   That Paul would use a term to describe two different scenarios is not unusual.  The usage of firstborn is distinctly contrasted between vss 15 & 18. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.