It seems to me that Debbie taking the concept of a sovereign God to its reasonable end. If we take into consideration the immediate context , does not Col 1:22 establish the point made in this post - that IN CHRIST, even the purpose of reconciliation is established?
JD
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:58:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Ah, of course not, but the surgeon still can, and the real Jesus still can. Again: that's the point.
But let's not get hung up on the little analogy, it deals only with the question of belief. There is no doubt that the real Jesus is who he is and can act regardless of what any of us thinks. That's not where the problem lies, at least not for me. It's the rest that makes me hesitate: if we are in him and he in us, can we continue to be so mistaken? As Lance and you point out, we are all mistaken to some degree. Although I imagine some here would disagree with that.
Debbie
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Perry Locke" <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Re : [TruthTalk] Belief
> And if the mormon jesus, like Sasquatch, is a fictitious being, he can't > save them any more than the sasquatch can operate.
>
>>From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:39:43 -0400
>>
>>This is true! But that's just the point: the Sasquatch doesn't walk in, >>because he doesn't exist.
>>
>>Debbie
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Char les Perry Locke" >><cpl2602@hotmail.com>
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:18 PM
>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>
>>
>>>Debbie, suppose that you are blind and laid on the operating table, and a >>>Sasquatch walked in and you thought it was the surgeon, and you trusted >>>the Sasquatch. You would die on the table.
>>>
>>>>From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:12:51 -0400
>>>>
>>>>Assuming we have a correct understanding of Jesus and the Mormons don't, >>>>then if on that basis alone we are saved and they aren't, it is our >>>>understanding which has saved us. Like Bill (in a recent post), I can't >>>>hold with that.
>>>>
>>>>But the question was different, it was whether the actual object of my >>>>faith/belief (putting myself in the place of a Mormon) can still be the >>>>real Jesus even if I have so much wrong information about him. It >>>>doesn't seem impossible, given analogies one could invent: if I am blind >>>>and think the surgeon is a Sasquatch, but I still lie down on the >>>>operating table with full confidence, am I trus ting the surgeon? The >>>>quesiont cannot be just about what's in our heads and what's out there. >>>>With Jesus it is a matter of taking active steps, and him doing stuff to >>>>us. But is it best characterized as a one-shot deal, or a relationship >>>>that develops? And if the latter, then maybe the proper question is, Can >>>>this relationship, this interaction be going on and I the Mormon >>>>continue to have such wrong ideas about him? I find that harder to say >>>>Yes to, but I do not know. If what we others believe about Jesus is >>>>true, it seems to me that a genuine relationship with the real Person >>>>could not evoke less than worship. That is the stumbling block for me >>>>with Mormonism: worship. Can you worship without knowing it? (It was >>>>only an analogy, but maybe the Christian life is after all a single >> ;>>loooong surgery, at the end of which I can see, and realize the surgeon >>>>is not a Sasquatch. In due course, everyone will worship...)
>>>>
>>>>Lance, it may ultimately be the same question as Why aren't believers' >>>>lives changed more, if they have the Holy Spirit within them? Why don't >>>>we all agree about Scripture if we have the Holy Spirit within us? (I >>>>can predict some people's answer to this.)
>>>>
>>>>Debbie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Charles Perry Locke" <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
>>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>& gt;Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 4:12 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Lance,
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree that "Every christian believer believes 'through' an errant
>>>> > framework". But how errant is too errant? Is there a line that can be
>>>> > drawn? In the end either we are saved or we are not. Was our >>>> > framework
>>>> > "too" errant? Was our image of Jesus too far from the real Jesus? If
>>>>we
>>>> > are "too" errant for salvation, but did not know it, are we saved? >
>>>>These
>>>> > are mighty questions.
>>>> >
>>>> > To be totally honest, I cannot say with complete certainty that
>>>>mormons
>>>> > are not saved. Maybe their degree of errancy in their image of God >>>> > and
>>>> > Christ falls within the "saved" camp. However, from what I read in >>>> > the
>>>> > Bible, I believe that they are on the "too errant" side. That is why >>>> > I
>>>> > spend the time I do on TT doing what I do. If I did not care I would
>>>>be
>>>> > silent. If I thought that they were "in the fold", I would say to >>>> > them
>>>> > "Welcome, brothers and sisters."
>>>> >
>>>> > Perry
>>>> >
>>>> >>From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> ;> >>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>> >>To: <[email protected]>
>>>> >>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>> >>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:28:13 -0400
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Interesting! (there's that word again) Every christian believer >>>> >>believes
>>>> >>'through' an errant framework. One may believe in a geocentric
>>>>universe
>>>>or
>>>> >>a flat earth and, live out a fairly normal life. May one believe
>>>>'through'
>>>> >>a Mormon Jesus (assuming this to be a totally aberrant Jesus) into >>>> >>Jesus
>>>> >>as He is? I don't k now. What think YE Perry?
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: Bill Taylor
>>>> >> To: [email protected]
>>>> >> Sent: June 26, 2005 15:06
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi Dave,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> We would probably have to go into some further detail as to what >>>> >> >>
>>>>this
>>>> >> word "salvation" means to us before my answer can suffice -- or >>
>>>>perhaps
>>>> >> even be understood (and that is up to you) -- but the short answer >>>> >> is
>>>> >> this: "yes, the only requirement for entrance to heaven" is >>>> >> salvation
>>>>--
>>>> >> with one caveat: in Jesus Christ.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I believe that at the point in which death entered the world,
>>>>salvation
>>>> >> was necessary in order to receive eternal life. Anyone who is mortal
>>>>and
>>>> >> has died or will die on this earth must necessarily be resurrected
>>>>(which
>>>> >> is the pivotal aspect in my view of "salvation"; i.e., death being
>>>> >> swallowed up in victory) in order to live forever. In this view,
>>>>then,
>>>> >> salvation is that which stands between death and an eternal life in
>>>> >> "heaven."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bill&n bsp;
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: Dave Hansen
>>>> >> To: [email protected]
>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 1:03 AM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> DAVEH: Do you believe salvation is the only requirement for
>>>> >> entrance to heaven, Bill? (BTW....I would be most interested to
>>>>hear
>>>> >> the thoughts of other TTers on this as well.)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bill Taylor wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >&g t; A very wise friend of mine is keen on opining that there >>>> >> will
>>>>be
>>>> >> many Christians who hold grossly heretical beliefs, who upon their
>>>> >> passing will nevertheless find themselves securely in heaven. I >>>> >> agree
>>>> >> with him: if entrance into heaven is predicated upon right and only
>>>>right
>>>> >> thinking, then I suppose heaven will be a mighty lonely place.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bill
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>--
>>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >>Dave Hansen
>>>> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> >>http://www.langlitz.com
>>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >>If you wish to receive
>>>> >>things I find interesting,
>>>> >>I maintain six email lists...
>>>> >>JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
>>>> >>STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----------
>>>> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
>>>>may
>>>> > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>>>> > http://www.InnGlory.org
>>>> >
>>>> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
>>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you >>>> > have a
>>>> > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
>>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >>>know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >>>http://www.InnGl ory.org
>>>
>>>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >>>friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>----------
>>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >>know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >>http://www.InnGlory.org
>>
>>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] y.org and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >>friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>&nbs p;
>
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
But let's not get hung up on the little analogy, it deals only with the question of belief. There is no doubt that the real Jesus is who he is and can act regardless of what any of us thinks. That's not where the problem lies, at least not for me. It's the rest that makes me hesitate: if we are in him and he in us, can we continue to be so mistaken? As Lance and you point out, we are all mistaken to some degree. Although I imagine some here would disagree with that.
Debbie
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Perry Locke" <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Re : [TruthTalk] Belief
> And if the mormon jesus, like Sasquatch, is a fictitious being, he can't > save them any more than the sasquatch can operate.
>
>>From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:39:43 -0400
>>
>>This is true! But that's just the point: the Sasquatch doesn't walk in, >>because he doesn't exist.
>>
>>Debbie
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Char les Perry Locke" >><cpl2602@hotmail.com>
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:18 PM
>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>
>>
>>>Debbie, suppose that you are blind and laid on the operating table, and a >>>Sasquatch walked in and you thought it was the surgeon, and you trusted >>>the Sasquatch. You would die on the table.
>>>
>>>>From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:12:51 -0400
>>>>
>>>>Assuming we have a correct understanding of Jesus and the Mormons don't, >>>>then if on that basis alone we are saved and they aren't, it is our >>>>understanding which has saved us. Like Bill (in a recent post), I can't >>>>hold with that.
>>>>
>>>>But the question was different, it was whether the actual object of my >>>>faith/belief (putting myself in the place of a Mormon) can still be the >>>>real Jesus even if I have so much wrong information about him. It >>>>doesn't seem impossible, given analogies one could invent: if I am blind >>>>and think the surgeon is a Sasquatch, but I still lie down on the >>>>operating table with full confidence, am I trus ting the surgeon? The >>>>quesiont cannot be just about what's in our heads and what's out there. >>>>With Jesus it is a matter of taking active steps, and him doing stuff to >>>>us. But is it best characterized as a one-shot deal, or a relationship >>>>that develops? And if the latter, then maybe the proper question is, Can >>>>this relationship, this interaction be going on and I the Mormon >>>>continue to have such wrong ideas about him? I find that harder to say >>>>Yes to, but I do not know. If what we others believe about Jesus is >>>>true, it seems to me that a genuine relationship with the real Person >>>>could not evoke less than worship. That is the stumbling block for me >>>>with Mormonism: worship. Can you worship without knowing it? (It was >>>>only an analogy, but maybe the Christian life is after all a single >> ;>>loooong surgery, at the end of which I can see, and realize the surgeon >>>>is not a Sasquatch. In due course, everyone will worship...)
>>>>
>>>>Lance, it may ultimately be the same question as Why aren't believers' >>>>lives changed more, if they have the Holy Spirit within them? Why don't >>>>we all agree about Scripture if we have the Holy Spirit within us? (I >>>>can predict some people's answer to this.)
>>>>
>>>>Debbie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Charles Perry Locke" <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
>>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>& gt;Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 4:12 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Lance,
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree that "Every christian believer believes 'through' an errant
>>>> > framework". But how errant is too errant? Is there a line that can be
>>>> > drawn? In the end either we are saved or we are not. Was our >>>> > framework
>>>> > "too" errant? Was our image of Jesus too far from the real Jesus? If
>>>>we
>>>> > are "too" errant for salvation, but did not know it, are we saved? >
>>>>These
>>>> > are mighty questions.
>>>> >
>>>> > To be totally honest, I cannot say with complete certainty that
>>>>
>>>> > are not saved. Maybe their degree of errancy in their image of God >>>> > and
>>>> > Christ falls within the "saved" camp. However, from what I read in >>>> > the
>>>> > Bible, I believe that they are on the "too errant" side. That is why >>>> > I
>>>> > spend the time I do on TT doing what I do. If I did not care I would
>>>>be
>>>> > silent. If I thought that they were "in the fold", I would say to >>>> > them
>>>> > "Welcome, brothers and sisters."
>>>> >
>>>> > Perry
>>>> >
>>>> >>From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> ;> >>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>> >>To: <[email protected]>
>>>> >>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>> >>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:28:13 -0400
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Interesting! (there's that word again) Every christian believer >>>> >>believes
>>>> >>'through' an errant framework. One may believe in a geocentric
>>>>universe
>>>>or
>>>> >>a flat earth and, live out a fairly normal life. May one believe
>>>>'through'
>>>> >>a Mormon Jesus (assuming this to be a totally aberrant Jesus) into >>>> >>Jesus
>>>> >>as He is? I don't k now. What think YE Perry?
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: Bill Taylor
>>>> >> To: [email protected]
>>>> >> Sent: June 26, 2005 15:06
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi Dave,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> We would probably have to go into some further detail as to what >>>> >> >>
>>>>this
>>>> >> word "salvation" means to us before my answer can suffice -- or >>
>>>>perhaps
>>>> >> even be understood (and that is up to you) -- but the short answer >>>> >> is
>>>> >> this: "yes, the only requirement for entrance to heaven" is >>>> >> salvation
>>>>--
>>>> >> with one caveat: in Jesus Christ.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I believe that at the point in which death entered the world,
>>>>salvation
>>>> >> was necessary in order to receive eternal life. Anyone who is mortal
>>>>and
>>>> >> has died or will die on this earth must necessarily be resurrected
>>>>(which
>>>> >> is the pivotal aspect in my view of "salvation"; i.e., death being
>>>> >> swallowed up in victory) in order to live forever. In this view,
>>>>then,
>>>> >> salvation is that which stands between death and an eternal life in
>>>> >> "heaven."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bill&n bsp;
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: Dave Hansen
>>>> >> To: [email protected]
>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 1:03 AM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> DAVEH: Do you believe salvation is the only requirement for
>>>> >> entrance to heaven, Bill? (BTW....I would be most interested to
>>>>hear
>>>> >> the thoughts of other TTers on this as well.)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bill Taylor wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >&g t; A very wise friend of mine is keen on opining that there >>>> >> will
>>>>be
>>>> >> many Christians who hold grossly heretical beliefs, who upon their
>>>> >> passing will nevertheless find themselves securely in heaven. I >>>> >> agree
>>>> >> with him: if entrance into heaven is predicated upon right and only
>>>>right
>>>> >> thinking, then I suppose heaven will be a mighty lonely place.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Bill
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>--
>>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >>Dave Hansen
>>>> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> >>http://www.langlitz.com
>>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >>If you wish to receive
>>>> >>things I find interesting,
>>>> >>I maintain six email lists...
>>>> >>JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
>>>> >>STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----------
>>>> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
>>>>may
>>>> > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>>>> > http://www.InnGlory.org
>>>> >
>>>> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
>>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you >>>> > have a
>>>> > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
>>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >>>know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >>>http://www.InnGl ory.org
>>>
>>>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >>>friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>----------
>>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >>know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >>http://www.InnGlory.org
>>
>>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] y.org and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >>friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>&nbs p;
>
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
