[TruthTalk] Imageless images

[Judy Taylor]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: > Well Lance, DavidM suggested I pay attention to this - but I don't find it relevant to what we have been > discussing.   Such suggests to me that perhaps you are not listening very well.  Try a little harder to hear what is being said.  Even if you only perceive a little of what is being said, you should be able to find the relevance.   Judy wrote: > Torrance is addressing the natural and I am addressing the spiritual.   No, Torrance is addressing the spiritual.  More specifically, Torrance is addressing how we communicate the spiritual.   jt: God can give people visions and communicate by way of the parable but He doesn't have to. He can speak directly to our human spirit without mental imagery.  This is what I am saying.   Judy wrote: > Mankind does not understand spiritual truth by way of "images".   Very true, but man does COMMUNICATE spiritual truth by way of images.  So does God.  When Torrance says "imageless images," it seems to me that he is talking about words (language).   jt: The historical church has done this which is why the iconoclastic break with the eastern church happened but this does not mean that it is God's way.  Do you think he communed with Abraham and Moses using pictures?   Judy wrote: > God knowing how prone we are to idolatry has not left us an image of Himself.   What God has left us is "imageless images" (words) to communicate with one another about him in a respectful way, so that people will turn inward to their hearts to know him rather to outward forms of worship.   jt: He has given us His Word which we receive and act on by faith.   Judy wrote: > Noone knows what Jesus looked like in the flesh and of course there is no image of the Holy Spirit who is like the wind, we know where he has been because we see the results.  Tell me what is the image of faith, love and/or justice?   The "imageless images" of faith, love and/or justice are the words themselves (faith, love and justice) and perhaps whatever commentary one might use to explain these concepts to others.   jt: I don't believe we need commentary; God has given us an understanding.  Even a young child recognizes and is drawn to love. Same with justice - all kids think they know what is and what is not just or fair.   Judy wrote: > Dead religion along with the occult  is what clings to images, symbols, and icons   This is true, Judy, but go back and read that piece by Torrance again with a little more effort put into trying to understand his point.  He actually is trying to move people away from clinging to symbols (words) by helping them see that the symbols themelves are not important, but it is the spiritual reality to which the symbols are pointing that is important.  Said another way:  Torrance is saying:  "Don't get hung up on words like 'perichoresis' because such is only an imageless image.  Look beyond it to the thing it is trying to represent."  I think if you could look beyond the "imageless images" that Torrance uses, to the actual reality of which he speaks, you would find yourself in agreement with his point.   jt: David I will pray about this but at this point I don't see any spiritual reality behind a lot of words that are used in religious circles.  The spiritual reality is God's Word and if there is no precedent there - I just put it on a big shelf or let it go.  There is enough I need to learn that is there without dragging a load of other religious and theological terminology and writings around with me.  What is the point of all this?  Can you David show me the precedent for this dance from scripture?  If it is important and not just "some new thing" it should be there.