Terry wrote:
Still those who were being spoken to were under
the law, as all Jews were, including Jesus, until the
moment that the veil in the temple was rent.
Coming out from the law and coming under Christ was happening before the
veil in the temple was rent. I have already given you some Scriptures that
prove this, but perhaps we have a different understanding of terms. Do you
agree that those in the kingdom of heaven, even the least in the kingdom,
are not under law but under grace? If so, the passages I offered should
make sense (e.g., Mat. 11:11 ff.) but if not, we need to talk about that
some more.
Terry wrote:
Look again. Had the law not been fulfilled, one jot
or tittle would not have passed away, but Christ fulfilled
the law, morally, sacrificially, and legally. He is the only
one who ever did, but it has been fulfilled, and for every
one who trusts in Christ finished work, it is fullfilled.
No born again believer is under it today.
You seem to be reading something into the text that is not there. Following
is the passage:
Matthew 5:17-18
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not
come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
I see the following points established in this passage:
1. Jesus did not come to destroy the law.
2. Jesus came to fulfill the law.
3. Fulfilling the law is not destroying the law.
4. The law will continue even after Jesus fulfills the law.
5. Not one jot or one tittle will pass from the law until heaven and earth
pass.
Terry wrote:
God is not the problem. Temptation is not the
problem. The flesh is the problem. He makes
a way to escape. We do not always take advantage
of that way.
This is the opinion of man, not the teaching of Christ. Please keep this in
perspective. Try and present this teaching from the context of Scripture
and you will soon see that it is not the testimony of Scripture that
children of God do not always take advantage of the way out of sin.
Please seriously consider the following testimony of John and contrast it
with your testimony written above, that we do not always take advantage of
that way. Don't look at your experience, but look at the testimony of God.
1 John 3:5-10
(5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is
no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen
him, neither known him.
(7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous.
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the
devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that
loveth not his brother.
Terry wrote:
I am saying that I and many others have tried
to be flawless and none of us are there.
If I must be flawless to be pleasing to God,
I might as well give up now and go back to getting
drunk, getting laid and getting in fights as was once
my pattern, at least on Saturday nights. I no longer
want that. I want to follow Christ, and I am going
to continue to do that to the best of my ability, but
though I follow Him, I am not yet like Him, and do
not expect to be. There has only been one sinless
man, and neither you or I are going to be the second.
Terry, you are more perfect than you can possibly imagine. Your only
hindrance is not expecting Christ to do perfectly what he has promised to do
for you.
You have it right in this vein, and that is that those who TRY to be
flawless will never obtain. The key is in not trying, but in resting in
Christ. When God considers you righteous, that is not a little thing. The
God who said, "let there be light" is the same God that saw light come into
existence when he so considered it. The God who considered Abraham to be a
man of many nations caused it to be when he considered it to be so. When
God considers us righteous, it becomes a reality within us, and we cannot
make the righteousness that is obtained this way a sub-category of
righteousness that is below his righteousness. We are the righteousness of
God. When we belittle the righteousness that we have become through faith,
we belittle God's righteousness.
Terry wrote:
Being considered righteous by God makes us
righteous in His sight. Don't get the idea that you
have achieved perfection. It is his consideration,
not your ability to live a sinless life that will save you.
I have no problem with this paragraph at all. It is the former things,
which belittles the righteousness that we obtain apart from our own efforts,
that I have problems with. When God considers us righteous, it is not just
a positional thing. We are created for good works.
Following is one of my favorite passages in the Bible, but too many people
leave off verse 10 when they quote it. I hope in the context of our
discussion, you will consider it afresh.
Ephesians 2:8-10
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
If God has ordained us to walk in good works, who are we to say it is
impossible and that nobody but Jesus has done it?
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
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After all these words back and forth, I think we see basically the same
things; at least the important things. We can never be righteous in
and of ourselves.. We are blessed to belong to a God of grace who not
only demands righteousness but provides what is needed to enable
righteous. I suppose that our major difficulty is in the definition of
perfect. My definition might be more demanding than yours. 
