[TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

Oophs!  Sorry the editing is off so am resending this...   From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you seem to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following:   1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that the spirit is dead. Jt: I don't believe I am saying what any of you think I am saying - when I say spiritually dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs cursing. Someone Who is cursed is walking in spiritual death while they live. This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day. And incidentally spirits don't die so it will be eternity with the Lord or banished from his presence and in the presence of the devil and his angels.   2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit? Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how great is that darkness.   jt: Because of His covenants God anointed certain ones for the work of the ministry in three areas which were: Prophets, Priests, and Kings. Today Jesus fulfills all three.   3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is "spiritually dead"? Jt: It happens because Jesus is our Creator and He is the one who spoke the worlds into existence.  Ultimately He is the one who fulfilled Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance?.. What does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is “dead while she lives?” or "To be carnally minded is death while to be spiritually minded is life and peace?"   One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something that is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested. Jt: A&E lost their “openness with God on that day; they experienced fear and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after this their son Cain committed the first murder and was cursed. Wrong spirits produce bad fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and progressed from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill all but one family.   Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think "spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead metaphorically speaking. Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a metaphor. I don’t believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the correct understanding?  Where do you suppose the adversary or the Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house?  He is spirit also.  Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit?  All three can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit).  Why do some find it so easy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing with each other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a human being and that is all.  Will we just throw out what we don't understand; stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the place?  judyt