Good enough, Mr. Moderator. I stated why I considered her remarks to be slanderous. You do not see them as such. I will go with your opinion.
Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > Bill, from reading Judy's comments I do not see that she is slandering you, > in that she is not asserting anything about you personally. It appears to me > as though she may herself believe what she has asked, but is uncertain, and > is asking for confirmation. A simple no in answer to her question seems all > that is necessary to dispell her incorrect belief, which you wrote very > effectively with your response "Absolutely not!". > > If there is something more here I have missed please enlighten me > further. > > Perry the Moderator > > >From: "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [email protected] > >To: <[email protected]> > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:37:48 -0600 > > > >JD wrote > Judy, I am pretty sure that Bill believes that Christ was God > >on earth and you do not. > > > >JT > Why would you believe that JD? Isn't Bill the one saying that Jesus > >came to earth in sin and trespasses? > > > >Absolutely not! > > > >Moreover, I believe Jesus was fully God and fully man in one person -- and > >you know this quite well because we have discussed it at length on numerous > >occasions, so why the slanderous dishonesty? > > > >Mr. Moderator, I think it is time for some intervention. > > > >Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Judy Taylor > > To: [email protected] > > Cc: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:40:16 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Judy, I am pretty sure that Bill believes that Christ was God on > >earth and you do not. > > > > Why would you believe that JD? Isn't Bill the one saying that Jesus > >came to earth in sin and trespasses? > > > > Have I misunderstood your position? JD > > > > I think you've misunderstood both of us. I am the one pointing out > >that he is heavenly and we are of the > > earth or earthly - (John 3:31) that is until we take upon ourselves > >the heavenly at the New Birth. jt > > > > > > From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > If you don't want to respond Bill I don't mind. I'm not sure what > >points you have actually made other than that > > you are not open to what I have written here. You seem to believe > >that Jesus was exactly like us. I have given > > you scripture here that says he wasn't like us - because we are > >earthly and He is and always has been heavenly. > > Just that one point should be enough but I'm sure it's not and like > >Izzy I am not really interested in the theories > > of the ancients but if you want to discuss scripture. fine. > > > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:47:37 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >writes: > > Judy, if you want to tone down the rhetoric and respond again, this > >time actually address the points I have made, I will be happy to respond to > >you. > > > > Bill > > From: Judy Taylor > > > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:15:23 -0600 "Bill Taylor" > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Bill: There are numerous reasons why I reject this doctrine, > >Izzy, the foremost of which is because I believe it is impossible for Jesus > >to have been "spiritually dead" at any point in his lifetime. > > > > jt: I would agree with the above. I don't believe it possible > >for the Lord of Life to have been in sin or spiritually dead myself. > > > > Bill: Paul tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful > >flesh" and that it was in his flesh that he destroyed sin. > > > > jt: What scripture do you refer to above? Rom 8:3 says he > >condemned sin in the flesh; also I would note that he came in > > the "likeness" of sinful flesh and a likeness is not the real > >thing, it is always a similitude. > > > > Bill: I believe that it is absolutely essential that Christ had > >to assume sinful flesh in order to save us in our sinful flesh. If he did > >not have the same flesh as we, then he did not defeat sin in our flesh -- > >it's as simple as that. Hence we are still in our sin and he did nothing to > >restore or revive us in his resurrection. > > > > jt: If the above is your condition for salvation Bill then you > >are still in your sin. He had no sin in His flesh all of his sufferings > >were for us. > > He condemned sin in the flesh and sent us "dunamis" or power so > >that we can agree with Him and condemn sin in our own flesh daily walking > >after the Spirit and free from it's power. > > > > Stated another way, if he was born with flesh other than our > >kind, which is "sinful," then he may have avoided sin in his kind of flesh, > >but he left us in the sin of ours; hence he is not our Savior. > > > > jt: Then you deny the offense of the cross and He is not your > >Savior Bill. > > > > According to the classic doctrine of spiritual death, "sinful > >flesh" is "spiritually dead" (read David's very helpful posting of > >Augustine on this). The term "sinful flesh" is thus itself a metaphor for > >the entire person living in a fallen state and a sin nature. > > > > jt: Nonsense, Augustine has nothing to do with anything. Sin is > >a spiritual problem and it would be best to leave Augustine out of this and > >stay with sola scripture.. > > > > Bill: And since this nature is spiritually dead, it has no > >ability or desire to seek God. It must be "quickened" before it can be > >restored and become "spiritually alive." > > > > jt: The above is Calvin not Bible. Calvin is the one who says > >one has to be regenerated before they can be saved; scripture says that > >"whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" > > > > Bill: The common belief is that we are made spiritually alive at > >the point that we are "born again." This is not a problem for a strict > >"Calvinist" because he believes that God determines who will be born again > >and, based upon that decree, reaches down, so to speak, and quickens those > >whom he wills to save, thus restoring them to spiritual life. But if one > >does not hold to this view, it presents a real problem: How can one who is > >dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be born again so > >as to be made alive? Cadavers can not make choices, let alone act upon > >them. > > > > jt: How does a cadaver sin Bill? You need to dispense with both > >Augustine and Calvin and their metaphors and let the light of Christ shine > >where they have been. > > > > Hence those who are not strict Calvinists must equivocate at > >this point and treat the "spirit" aspect of personhood as if it were not so > >dead as to not be able to respond to God's call -- which is really to say > >that it is not dead at all, perhaps really sick: but not "spiritually" > >dead. Here the desire is to hold onto the classic language but not so > >tightly as to be true to or consistent with its ramifications. I say just > >drop the language; it holds no authority over us, since it is non-biblical > >terminology. > > > > jt: Of course it is Biblical terminology - mankind is "spirit, > >soul, and body" remember? It is terms like "cadaver" that are not Biblical > >and hold no authority. > > > > Now let's look again at Jesus. If Jesus was born with our sinful > >flesh, as the Scriptures attest, and if sinful flesh is spiritually dead, > >then he too had to have been spiritually dead in his sinful flesh, just as > >we are in our sinful flesh. > > > > jt: Jesus was not born with OUR sinful flesh Bill. His father > >was God - remember? So the sins of the fathers did not apply to him. He > >came to be our substitue/sacrifice. > > > > Bill: Why? because he came in the likeness of our flesh. And so > >the obvious question is this: At what point did he become spiritually alive > >-- was it when he was circumcised? or as a boy at his bar mitzvah? was it > >at his baptism? his resurrection? when was it? Did he too have to be "born > >again" in order to become spiritually alive? When was his "spirit" revived? > > > > jt: Elementary Bill. He was not ever dead in trespass and sin - > >that is US and when he took our burden upon Himself at Calvary the light > >went out (because He is the light) and that generation experienced 3hrs of > >darkness and it wasn't the power company. > > > > Bill: I believe that Jesus was always spiritually alive and that > >from his earliest childhood, he was in intimate communion with his Father. > >He was acutely attuned to his spiritual dimension and allowed that aspect > >of his personhood to direct the other aspects. > > > > jt: Well then he wouldn't have been walking in trespass and sin > >Bill while "finely attuned to his spiritual dimension" would he? > > > > Hence he walked in faithfulness to his Father with every step, > >even "beating his way forward with blows," as Luke states it. In other > >words, there was not a time when he was not alive and living out his right > >relationship with his Father in absolute obedience. > > > > jt: Where does Luke say he "beat his way forward with blows?" > >Why would he have to do that since the Prince of this world had nothing in > >Him? (John 14:30). If He had been born in trespass & sin the Prince of > >this world would have had something in Him and a claim on Him. > > > > Yet if spiritual death is a requisite of personhood in sinful > >flesh, then this cannot be true; for either Christ had to have been > >"quickened" or born again in order to accomplish the things he did in his > >flesh, or he did not come to us as we are -- in the likeness of sinful > >flesh; hence he could not have saved us in our sinful state. Bill > > > > jt: Straw man argument Bill. Christ was never spiritually dead. > > He is from above remember? We are from the earth and earthly (John 3:31) > >- He that is from heaven is ABOVE ALL, so I would think that this ends this > >false analogy. > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
