[TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus

[Judy Taylor]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote:  ... I am curious about you.  Why do you have to have a Jesus born into the same sin, frailty, and weakness as us?   I don't "have to have it" this way.  I learned this from the Scriptures. I already gave you some passages.   Here are a few others:   Hebrews 5:7-9 (7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; (9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;   Notice the phrase here, "in the days of his flesh."  This was a significant event.  Compare this with the passages I already shared in the last post.   jt: Maybe I don't read as much into it as you do David.  To me "in the days of his flesh" means before the cross and we know when he offered up these prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears - in the garden of Gethsemane. If I knew that was before me it would be that and more.     Consider the next one too: Hebrews 2:9-18 (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.  (10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, (12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.  (13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.  (14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.  (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.  (17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.  (18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.   Just read this Scripture, Judy.  How can you miss it?  Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, why?  To experience mortality!  To experience death.  To be made like us in every way.  To be made perfect through sufferings, the same way we are perfected.  Look at verse 11, "both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one."  This is the reason he calls us brethren.    jt: Remember David that this is written AFTER the cross ie "he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified" - New Birth - Holy Spirit - we are one in the same way that He and the Father were one during His earthly ministry.   He was made just like us.  Look at verse 14.  He says, "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same."    jt: Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitations as the ones we have only he was not "just like us" David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34)  We have nothing like that going on.  His mind didn't have to be renewed - at the age of 12yrs He knew more than the teachers at the temple and there is no record that he was ever physically sick.   The reason given here is the same as in Romans 8:3 where he says that he was made in the likeness of SINFUL flesh. That he might have power over the bad aspects of the flesh, which include death and the law of sin and death that resides in the flesh.    jt: David I still do not accept that "likeness" is same as the real thing, or even that it was necessary that He have the same weakYes He condemned sin in the flesh by fulfilling the Law in his own life following which He lay down His physical life for us on a sinner's cross so that ultimately He became an eternal sacrifice.  If He came with the same flesh weakness that we have inherited he wouldn't have kept the law either.  Think about it.  Jesus living in Romans 7 along with Paul.   Then read verse 16.  How much clearer can he be?  He took on him the SEED of Abraham.  His FLESH was descended from the seed of Abraham.  There it is right there in Scripture.  Inescapable.    jt: The seed of Abraham is not flesh it is spiritual.  Isaac is the seed of Promise and Christ is the fulfillment of that promise. Ishmael is the fleshly seed and they are still warring against one another just like the Spirit and flesh do in us.   Muslims want to reject this view.  Jews want to reject this view.  EVEN SOME CHRISTIANS want to reject this view.  The idea of Christ being come in the flesh seems anathema to those who hate the flesh and see God as far removed from it.    jt: I don't hate the flesh David. I believe we are fearfully and wonderfully made.  However, we need to call things what God calls them.  I am no fan of Augustine or Calvin; they had some light along with a lot of error but who wants to stay camped there?    What fellowship has light with darkness?    jt: Both spiritual concepts the body isn't darkness, it makes no decisions - it does what we tell it to do.   How can God Almighty become flesh like us?  Impossible?  Sounds like it, but no, it is a great mystery that one can understand if we press through to grasp it.   jt: Oh no David.  Here we go with the mystery.  This is a favorite ploy of those following the RCC Church Fathers and their teachings.  Every time they get in a mess they call it a mystery.   Judy wrote: Are you also holding to this incarnational Athanasian concept or is it your background in biology?   No, Judy, I did not get this understanding from Athanasia.  I got it from reading the Bible.  I will grant you that my biology background has helped me tremendously to understand how the flesh is the source of selfish behavior in ways that probably surpasses the apostle Paul.    jt: Not the body by itself David; flesh in the sense of soul or mind, will, emotions.   At the same time, I am amazed that Paul understood these things as he did without having the understanding of biology that has been unveiled within our generation. Regardless of my biology background, these things are understandable without any of that.  The Bible teaches it.  That is all we need.  I wonder why you are resistent to the idea.  For someone who clearly wants to stay clear of Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, you buy into it hook, line, and sinker on this issue.  Why?    jt: I am definitely not buying into anything Augustine or Calvin were teaching about all this. I see spiritual death happening to A&E in the garden but what I am talking about is not the same thing Augustine promoted or Calvin after him... and about this idea of Jesus being our brother.  I see this as a post Resurrection truth - that is,  after we have received the Promise of the Father and we are one with Him because of the Spirit.  This is the whole idea of the New Creation in Him.  We reckon the old man dead - put off the old and put on the new.  All this talk about everyone's old man (the whole world) being assumed and resurrected is  worse than the immaculate conception and just as heretical.   Perhaps it is your desire to make Jesus unique as a person?  Recognizing that he is flesh does not have to interfere with his uniqueness.  He was unique, just as Isaac was unique from Ishmael.  Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, not some alien flesh, not the flesh of pre-fallen man, but human flesh descended from Abraham and David. This is what the Bible teaches.    jt: To me this negates God's holiness which is what separated Him from humanity.  I know on occasion He spoke with ppl such as Job, Abraham, and the prophets but look at all they had to go through to approach him when he was Father/Husband to Israel, all the washings. It took them three days to prepare.  Think about Isaiah the first thing out of his mouth in God's presence "I am a man of unclean lips"  So are we David - because we have a heart problem.  Jesus didn't, in fact all of His words were Spirit and Life.  He spoke no death at all.  This can not be said of us.  Not any of us.  So I'm sorry I just can not see Him the same way that you do; because to me there are some huge issues.   If we were to do genetic testing on his flesh, we would find him related to Mary his mother, and also related to all the ancestors that Matthew so carefully outlines for us.  Why would you find this difficult to accept?  Perhaps you should begin, one by one, to mention some of your objections.  If we can answer your every objection, then maybe you could consider afresh what the Bible is teaching on this subject.