I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it. A "spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit. A "spiritually alive" person is heaven-bound. He understands things of the Spirit. One is living in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: "My words are Spirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you seem to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following: 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that the spirit is dead. Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs. cursing. Someone Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day. 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit? Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how great is that darkness. 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is "spiritually dead"? Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke the worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead while she lives?" One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something that is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested. Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced fear and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceeded from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill everyone but one family. Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think "spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead metaphorically speaking. Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the correct understanding? Where do you suppose the adversary or the Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house? He is spirit also. Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit? All three can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit). Why do some find it so easy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing with each other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a human being and that is all. Will we just throw out what we don't understand; stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the day? judyt ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
