Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:36:49 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Not surprising since He blesses both the just and the unjust.    jd: THIS IS TRUE JD   jt: What do you mean "does not work?" Does God have to "work for us" before we choose His way?  Rather we serve Him...     jd: WORKS SALVATION IS NOT THE GOSPEL  JD   jt: You do argue against obedience constantly JD and you have even renamed it "works salvation"     jd: ONLY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT IS   JD  Such people deny the Spirit of God for others and lead people into a walk that is no different from the core beliefs  (on this subject) of  the Mormons, the RCC and the JW's..    jt: Plain old unadulterated nonsense JD. What I believe and practice has nothing at all to do with any of the above which are all exclusive man made hierarchies.   Anyway lawlessness is no more the gospel than what you call "works salvation"   jd: NOT AT ALL, JUDY.   THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND THE MORMONS OR THE RCC OR THE JW'S IS WHICH RULES YOU MUST OBEY TO GET SAVED OR TO KEEP SALVATION.   ALL I HAVE HEARD FROM ANY OF YOU IS WHICH MAN, WHICH GOD, WHICH BOOK, WHAT COMMANDMENTS   ----------------  NONE SEEM INTERESTED IN  THEOSE THINGS THAT TRANSCEND THE OUTWARD AND THE LEGAL      COMPLIANCE AND FORMULA ARE THE NAMES OF THE GAME.     AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE,  I DON'T BUY IT   jt: Ok JD, put some feet to your accusations and tell me which man I am assigned to while you elevate the RCC church fathers?   jt: I don't think you should be judging either of us personally JD and if you are unable to recognize whether or not a person speaks truth by God's Word then it is worse than a pointless endeavor.      jd: AND YOU ARE KIDDING - RIGHT?  YOU HAVE RENDERED ONE OF THE HARSHEST OF JUDGMENTS AGAINST GARY AND THEN HAVE THE WHATEVER TO WRITE THE ABOVE?   PARDON ME FOR NOT TAKING YOU SERIOUSLY.    AND AVOID THE REAL ISSUE, WHY DON'T YOU.   EXPLAIN TO ME WHY I SHOULD ASUME YOUR HONESTY AND NOT G'S  .......................... YOU CAN'T DO THIS, CAN YOU.   Do you know why you resist "works salvationists" ?   Because you know that "works salvationism" is false doctrine.     jt: I agree it is every bit as false as lawlessness but never have any reason to have to deal withthis since I don't go to those places - but then you would probably define the PCA Church I do attend that way since they teach that true faith will have corresponding actions or fruit that is evident in the lives of those who profess to follow Jesus.      jd: IN A COMPARISON BETWEEN WHAT I Believe AND WHAT YOU Believe, YOU WILL DISCOVER HE IDEA OF " WORKS SALVATION."       AS FAR AS THE PCA -- YOUR TEACHINGS HAVE VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THAT DENOMINAION  --  NEXT TO NOTHING, IN FACT.     jt: From what I read JD your beliefs change continually also and you are wrong about the PCA.  I very seriously doubt that you know what they teach and believe.  The problem with this is probably a roll-over from your CofC legalism trauma.  Fact is God is and always has been a God of Covenant and his ppl are either covenant keepers or covenant breakers.  Lance has some pie in the sky idea that for usthe covenant is unilateral meaning that God does the lot and we just go on our merry way.  His doctrine mayback this up but the scriptures certainly do not.   jd: I am going to start tracking the times when you have answered a question with pure speculation or avoided my questioning  (or others) altogether.   When the time is right  -- you are going to be startled.   Your tactic, at that time, will included accusing me of cut and paste and other such dishonest endeavors  --  but that tactic will be considered as I track you and your buds on this action.   It will take perhaps six months.   I will be fully silent on this  --  you  all will forget I am doing this and then  BAM>   :-)   jt: What makes you think that any of us will accept such tactics as God inspired or true?  I'm human and miss it at times but then so do you JD.   jd: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MISSING IT AT TIMES  -  I SPEAK OF AVOIDANCE, SPECULATION AND JUDGMENTALISM.  I assume G feels the same.  You will disagree, of course.  We cannot help but to speak and write out of our theological construct.   Your construct  includes (apparently) the idea that you can judge a fellow Christian to be a disciple of Satan and that you should tell them this   --  even frequently.   Ditto for kevin and shields.   jt:: I can discern what comes out of your own mouth/keyboard John and I can recognize the source of same. Accusation is never a blessing to those on the other side.    jd: i DON'T NEED TO DISCERN ANYTHING IN THIS PRESENT DISTRESS.   ALL I NEED TO DO IS TO BE ABLE TO READ.   If you do not see the source in my life as being the Spirit of God,  you and all who agree with you are have nothing to do with God in that c  consideration.  Nothing.   And you transgress I don't know how many scriptures  -------------   thank God we don;t have to be right to be saved.   jt: Oh?  So we can be totally wrong and still be saved?  What is the point of evangelizing or the faith once delivered to the saints that we are supposed to guard?  False accusation is destructive. It is never from God - it's source is always the accuser of the brethren. ATST I am not saying that you are serving Satan.   jd: YOU Deceive YOURSELF !!!!!   WHO IS THE "SOURCE" IN THIS SENTENCE OF YOURS:  I can discern what comes from your own mouth/keyboard John and recognize the source.   jt: Hebrews 5:14 , it is part of having senses exercised to discern between good and evil and false accusation is always evil. jd: AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU ADDRESS G WITH THESE WORDS -  "YOU ARE ONE WITH THE ACCUSER?'                     YOU FOOL NO ONE ON THIS MATTER.     jt: I mean G is acting as his mouthpiece.  We all must deal with accusing spirits but we don't have to allow them to use our mouths and this is what I am trying to get you to see.  The Holy Spirit convicts and that is entirely different allowing us to deal with personal transgression in the right way.   jd: The point, here, is that G will speak and write from his passion.  He will see associations between your words and what you are that may not be pleasant to you.   So what.    jt: So- there is a way that seems right to a man but the end therof is the way of death. It is all natural reasonings.  Why are you defending Gary and his one word comments?  It's not good to partake of another man's sin.   jd: This last phrase is exactly why I do defend Gary and resist you on this  --  sin, Judy.  You are in serious error on this matter.     jt: I don't think so JD. I have learned that God does not look kindly upon one taking up an offense for another. If Gary thinks Izzy and I are full of myth or that we are practicing manipulation so far as God is concerned then he is obligated to spell it out and show us by God's Word where we are missing the mark.  Scorn and mocking stand in the way of the sinner. (if in fact we are the sinners).   jd: FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, HE HAS DONE SO.  YOU TWO DO NOT USE Scripture ANYMORE OR LESS THAN G.   WORKS SALVATIONISM IS MANIPULATIVE FROM A GRACE POINT OF VIEW.     jt: Do you have G's permission to speak for him jd?  I don't believe you or he have a quote "grace point of view" because grace is what enables us to do what God required of us. It is not a cover for sin.   jd: All on the 'right" do this very thing many times a week.    What he nor Bill, nor Lance  (when he was with us) nor Slade nor Debbie nor Caroline Wong, or myself have ever placed any of you in the very camp of Satan  --  being one with him,  motivated by him and hatred for Believers.  I prefer G's "harshness" to yours, in this case and accept his response as an honest response.    jt: Why is it offensive to you to realize your mouth can and is being used by the wrong spirit?   jd: Because such is a lie  ................................   it is not moment of ignorance on the part of those who claim such, it is a lie.   I KNOW WHOM I SERVE, JUDY.  No one on this forum would argue that I serve Satan except a liar.   Hopefully that is not your position.   If anyone from the left or the right thinks for a second that I am going to back off on this   -  well you are wrong.   But, I am ready to move on to matters of biblical substance........just ftr.   jt: I never accused you of serving Satan JD; this is another accusation and comes from the same source. I am saying that you can unknowingly be used by him the same as James, John, and Peter were and I don't believe for one moment that those three were serving Satan any more than I believe that you are intentionally serving Satan.     jd: YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF IN THIS VERY SENTENCE  -- WHO IS THE SOURCE, JUDY, IF NOT SATAN??? IN FACT I CANNOT BE UNKNOWINGLY USED BY SATAN.  IF THAT WERE TRUE, WE WOULD HAVE NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION AT ALL.  A SILLY AND IMPOSSIBLE TEACHING.   AND I DON'T SERVE HIM BY ACCIDENT, EITHER.    jt: Jesus said the same to the sons of thunder; he told them they didn't know what spirit they were of.  He flat out confronted Peter and said "Get behind me Satan, you savour the things of man rather than the things of God" (my paraphrase).  Obedience is not works it is normal christian living.    jd: "not justified by works of law"  can only be understood as "not saved by obedience to law."     jt: We are saved by obedience to Christ who said "If you love me you will do what I say"   Scripture please  ---------------   preferably a scripture that does not need to be reworded.    "If ye love me keep my commandments" (John 14:15)    jd: WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT WE NOT SAVED UNTIL WE OBEY?   jt: I'll answer the above in another thread.... this is long.   judyt                   -----Original Message----- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:27:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14     JD David is right, I have been trying to get you to see what you are doing and it is for your/Gary's sake as much as ours because not only does continual accusation wear us out - You/Gary will never reap blessing so long as you are allowing the adversary to use you this way.   On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:54:46 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One additional comment.   Your post below justifies Judy's very bad behavior, ignoring the possibility that Gary was hoping that Judy (and then Linda) would see their actions as, in reality, an attempt to manipulate God.    jt: We are not entirely stupid JD; why would you think we are trying to manipulate God?   "If I do this and that,  then I can expect God to do that and this."   Such can be considered manipulation  --    jt: Not when one has learned to know His ways and walk in them JD. This is where the blessings of obedience happen.  God always longed for Israel to want to know His ways but they preferred His acts - only Moses knew them and had the ppl wearing him out night and day wanting him to make spiritual judgments between them.   especially when such thinking is not founded in scripture  (i.e.works salvation)   Now, whether Gary's theological opinion is correct, and I think it is,  his willingness to be honest in his appraisal without accusing either Judy or Linda of being disciples of Satan can be seen as a very commendable action.     jt: Honest?  Most of the time noone knows what he is saying but lately he has been openly accusing so I don't know how you would reach such a consensus JD.   Once more - obedience is not works it is normal christian living.  judyt           -----Original Message----- From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14     JD wrote: > Judy writes this  YOU ARE ONE WITH THE ACCUSER > That sort of tripe is ad hom at its core.   Yes, John, it is, but you seem to overlook that she was responding to a personal insult.  If a man slugs another man, and the man he slugs then slugs back, is it really fair to focus all our criticism on the man who slugged back in response to the first?  I'm not trying to justify her, but help you see that others are provoking her and it would be best if we got to the root of the problem.  Ideally, it would be best if we all turned the other cheek, but if that does not happen, we try and stop the root of the problem and then the rest is taken care of as a result.   Furthermore, there is actually a big difference in what Judy is saying and that of the initial accuser.  It seems to me that Judy is hoping to help the one who is doing the initial accusing to see that he is cooperating with spiritual forces that perhaps he does not mean to be.  In other words, she is trying to help him see why he has become an accuser himself and hoping that realization will cause him to correct his misbehavior.   Peace be with you. David Miller.