[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
deegan and I are clearly
not in the same boat BUT. I do think you are missing the point he is
making on this, DH. blaine has hung his hat (not entirely,
of course) on Mormorn growth
rate
DAVEH: I didn't quite see it that way. If Blaine believes that
growth rate alone reflects truth, I'd say he is using some pretty
screwed up logic as well. Perhaps he can clarify what he was saying.
Looking at the posts below in this thread, I was correcting what I
perceived to be outdated material you submitted, and Blaine was
updating the information even more. Relative to these posts, Blaine
made no comment about the relationship between the growth rate and its
trueness. Kevin pulled some quotes from other posts that made it seem
like (and Kevin implied that) Blaine was saying that the LDS Church is
true because of its rapid growth. I don't think that is what Blaine
said or implied at all. But....let's let him respond, as we (you,
Kevin and me) have our biases that affect our thinking processes.
and sees the Mormon religion as just that - a religion.
DAVEH: Do you not find it interesting that the LDS Church is
classified amongst Christian churches in this study? Do you suppose it
is considered as a Christian church in contrast to what some TTers
believe?
I was thinking that the claim was that Mormonism is Christian. Such does
not appear to be the case . Blaine writes: Mormonism,
or the religion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A rather disappointing comment.
DAVEH: Without knowing the context of what else he said at the same
time, I can't offer an opinion one way or the other on this one. I
don't see where such a statement alone would suggest that Mormonism is
not Christian.
And when we are talking about growth
rates, world wide, the Christian faith (excluding Mormonis - apparently by thei r own
admission) is growing at the rate of 3,000 per hour
.
DAVEH: How many of those do you suppose can be attributed to the RCC
birth rate?
Kingdom rule has already been
established.
DAVEH: Such the RCC folks believe. They just don't quite understand
why you (Protestants) felt the need to leave the nest.
Grace is the order of the day and the
"right church" was never The Divine Concern except that this assemblage
be CONSIDERED RIGHT through and because
of Christ. The notion that the church was initially right (Book of
Acts ) and that it fell away is simply not historically accurate (Book
of Acts).
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, John. IF there was not a falling
away, there would be no need for a restitution of all things, as I see
it.
And your debate with deegan
DAVEH: I don't recall doing much debating with Kevin recently.
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, though that hardly
seems possible.
and other works-salvationists
on TT is only a debate over
which rules are the right rules. The primary theology is the same
and the method of institutional purity is identical -- x those who
disagree -- damn such passages as Romans 14.
JD
So using LDS "Logic"
We see without a DOUBT the RCC
"MUST BE THE ONE TRUE CHURCH"
DAVEH: You seem to be
confusing the facts (of what was posted) to fit your illogical
conclusion, Kevin. What Blaine said about the relatively rapid growth
of the LDS Church is of no
relevance to the size or trueness of the RCC
folks.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
DAVEH: Why would you think that is LDS logic to
assume such, Kevin?
bborrow26
Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:00:52 -0800On
Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:41:53 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message
dated 2/25/2005 5:09:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > The LDS Church will continue to advance and grow, because the
people who are minding the store, so to speak, have received their
commission from above.
> > Blainer) Mormonism, or the religion of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has succeeded to the
tune of 11,000,000 + current members, and with a current growth rate
of 19.3 % is the fastest growing denomination in the United States and
is currently the sixth
largest denomination in the US. This is not failure in any sense,
but begins to fulfill revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith:
Blainer) The figures
don't lie. The rate of growth for the Mormon Church exceeds even the
Moslems in the US. Zion will flourish, and the Kingdom of God will be
established by the Mormon Church. It is just a matter of time.
> > BlaineR (Mr.
NO-CREDIBILITY) You pulled the switcheroo!!
Below is my post that STARTED this "discussion" to begin with. Note,
everyone, that Glenn thus far has failed to address the Mormon growth
rate. He just wants to talk about the numbers. GLENN, ARE YOU AFRAID TO DISCUSS THE
GROWTH RATE OF THE MORMON
CHURCH? (19.3 % last year, 2001). This is the second time I have
asked that, and so far--zilch for an answer.
"During the decade of the 1990s, many rapidly-growing
churches, including the Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of
God, and numerous Pentecostal groups, reported accelerating growth
trends throughout the decade, while The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints experienced persistent trends of decelerating
growth."
"After more than a decade of proselyting
in Russia with the largest full-time missionary force of any
denomination, LDS membership has risen to only 11,000, with a fraction
of those members remaining active. The same period has seen the number
of active Jehovah's Witnesses in
Russia rise to over 120,000, with some 275,000 individuals attending
conferences."
"The Assemblies of God are growing at approximately 10% per
year, or over three times the growth rate of the LDS Church, while the
Seventh-day Adventists report growth two to three times LDS rates at
5.6-8% per year."
"While the Church makes no claims about member activity rates
and no official reports of LDS activity rates are published, the Encyclopedia
of Mormonism notes,
"Attendance at sacrament meeting varies substantially. Canada, the
South Pacific, and the United States average between 40 percent and 50
percent. Europe and Africa average about 35 percent. Asia and Latin
America have weekly attendance rates of about 25 percent?European LDS
activity rates appear to have fallen well below the older 35% figure
cited in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism."
"The average missionary in 1989 brought 9.1 people into the
church, while in 2000 the average missionary brought 4.6 people into
the church. When one accounts for actual activity and retention rates,
with the great majority of LDS convert growth occurring in Latin
America and other areas with low retention and only 20-25% of convert
growth occurring in North America, it can be determined that of the 4.6
persons baptized by the average missionary each year, approximately
1.3 will remain active."
The stake mission leader gave a lesson on missionary work that
was somewhat frantic.
Apparently, the conversion numbers are slipping
drastically. The church is getting the same number of new
converts as in 1989, but they are using twice as many missionaries to
do it. He actually stated that these numbers indicate that the church
is in a state of apostasy. What makes this even more interesting is
that he was clearly getting the bulk of his lesson from what he had
heard from Area leaders.
He also said that churchwide,
temples are operating at 11% of capacity! I was staggered. I would have
guessed maybe 30% at the least.
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
DAVEH:
Why would you think that is LDS logic to assume such, Kevin? Read
through the posts regarding this thread. You will see my (and Blaine's) post was an attempt to bring
a little truth, knowledge and accuracy to TT. Your post is apparently an effort to bring a little
untruth to TT, as neither of us
suggested that the size of the LDS Church reflects its truthfulness.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
So using LDS "Logic"
We see without a DOUBT the RCC "MUST BE THE ONE TRUE
CHURCH"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Blainerb:
Interesting Dave, thanks--I have copied a part of one of the below site
addresses for the quick and easy perusal of TTr's:
Here's the 2005 list of the largest U.S. denominations:
1. The Catholic Church - 67,259,768
2. Southern Baptist Convention - 16,439,603
3. The United Methodist
Church - 8,251,175
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -
5,503,192
5. The Church of God in Christ - 5,449, 875
6. National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc. - 5,000,000
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - 4,984,925
8. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. -
3,500,000
9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - 3,241,309
10. Assemblies of God - 2,729,562
11. African Methodist
Episcopal Church - 2,500,000
12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America -
2,500,000
13. Progressive National Baptist Convention - 2,500,000
14. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) - 2,488,936
15. Episcopal Church - 2,320,221
16. Churches of Christ - 1,500,000
17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - 1,500,000
18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. - 1,500,000
19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. - 1,433,075
20. The African Methodist
Episcopal Zion Church - 1,432,795
21. United Church of Christ - 1,296,652
22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International - 1,200,000
23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ - 1,071,616
24. Jehovah's
Witnesses - 1,041,030
25. The Orthodox Church in America - 1,000,000
Philip E. Jenks
of the National Council of Churches contributed to this story. The 2005
Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches can be ordered at www.electronicchurch.org/order/eorder.
In a message dated 7/27/2005 10:54:49 P.M. Mountain
Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes: DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are
they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher......
http://www.religioscope...com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htm
........And here is another that is from just a few months ago....
http://news.ucc.org/index.php? option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=54
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
FYI ----- The Mormon Church
is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000
adherents.
Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members.
Within the US, growth rates for both groups are nearly flat line. In
foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13
million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred
thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church
has with the beginnings of the Mormon church
(IMO).
JD
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
|
