-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:04:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Gary wrote: > ftr, it really looks like JDs assessment is on > target and DavidM is in denial It only looks that way to the ignorant when you take out the Scriptures I had offered and chop up my quotes. I'm just standing by the Bible. The quote from which JD takes his "we have sinned" is yanked out of context to say something exclusive of the context in which it was said.
Part of the "context" of the first 7 chapters of Romans is the theme that man is a sinner; a
second theme is GOD SAVES US ANYWAY. This is said over and over again in these first 7 chapters.
R 5:12 compliments this larger context and ESTABLISHES the context of what follows 5:12.
You have the same problem with 1Jo 2 and 1Jo 1 -- where you consistently fail to allow chapter one to establish context for what follows (chapters 2 and 3).
Here is the passage: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Paul is arguing that sin entered into the world by one man, and death by sin, the very thing that JD attempts to counter. Paul leads us from this observation, which JD attempts to deny, to say that death has passed upon all men, "for that all have sinned." The Greek word translated "for" here is not "gar" (the way JD seems to be reading the passage), but rather it is "epi" which means "on."
Your scholarship in Greek needs review. Perhaps your PhD is in some _expression_ of Biblical
Greek. I don't remember. But I do know this -- epi, used here in Romans 5:12 carries with it thenuance of "because of " or on the account of -- Thayer, p 233 "epi" with specific reference to R5:12).
What is your source - or is this an extension of your scholasticity ( (;-) ) As I said before, Paul is giving us a reason we have confidence that sin passed unto all men from Adam. The reason is that all have sinned.
Pardon the intrusion of one of the Ignorant. But ... the last two sentences in the above
seem to say what I have been saying - David tells us that that sin passed upon all
men {and why, I ask] "the reason is that all have sinned." Huh ???!! How is this different from what I am arguing?
Keep reading the chapter, and it becomes even more clear that Paul is teaching that both death and sin have been passed onto us by Adam. Rom 5:17 For if BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE DEATH REIGNED by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:18 Therefore as BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE JUDGMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
David, just as we are not made righteous apart from some level of joint participation with Christ, so we are not made sinners solely by the transgression of Adam. You quote R5:17 as if 5:12
and 3:23 do not exist !! Your approach to theological reasoning is unreasonable and without a qualified hermeneutic. And that is why you are confused. It might serve you well to actually put in black and white your herm
eneutic. I think this will help your sense of consistency. So, Gary, you don't believe in the Adamic fall or original sin? I am somewhat surprised that you would depart from these particular orthodox teachings of Christianity. Is this part of the neo-orthodoxy in America now? Peace be with you. David Miller. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:52:40 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: JD: > You have taken mankind's failure out of the equation.. [while] Paul > declares that we die because we >have all have done the very same thing -- we have sinned. DavidM: <<..Paul's argument is that both death and sin have been passed onto us by Adam. >> ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
