David Miller wrote:
>> The quote from which JD takes his "we have sinned"
>> is yanked out of context to say something exclusive
>> of the context in which it was said.
JD wrote:
> Part of the "context" of the first 7 chapters of Romans
> is the theme that man is a sinner; a second theme is
> GOD SAVES US ANYWAY. This is said over and
> over again in these first 7 chapters.
I agree. Romans 5 introduces some new concepts though about inheritance.
JD wrote:
> R 5:12 compliments this larger context and ESTABLISHES
> the context of what follows 5:12. You have the same problem
> with 1Jo 2 and 1Jo 1 -- where you consistently fail to allow
> chapter one to establish context for what follows (chapters 2
> and 3).
On the contrary, John. Whenever I preach or teach from 1 John, I always go
to chapter 1 and emphasize the need to establish context. 1 John 1:8 is
always yanked out of context by the grace legalists.
John wrote:
> ... epi, used here in Romans 5:12 carries with it the
> nuance of "because of " or on the account of --
> Thayer, p 233 "epi" with specific reference to R5:12).
> What is your source - or is this an extension of your
> scholasticity ( (;-) )
No time right now to teach you Greek, John. Every first year student of
Greek should understand that "epi" is primarily translated "on." I'm just
trying to help you keep your connotation of the word straight. The Greek
word "gar" is used to bring more emphasis on the idea of "because of." If
you don't get it, don't worry about it. This is not a major point.
David Miller wrote:
>> As I said before, Paul is giving us a reason we have
>> confidence that sin passed unto all men from Adam.
>> The reason is that all have sinned.
John wrote:
> Pardon the intrusion of one of the Ignorant.
> But ... the last two sentences in the above
> seem to say what I have been saying - David
> tells us that that sin passed upon all men {and why,
> I ask] "the reason is that all have sinned." Huh ???!!
> How is this different from what I am arguing?
We are not that far apart on this, John. I only have concern about your
extreme language and what you eliminate from consideration. This is like
the chicken and the egg question of which came first. Do we sin because we
are born from Adam, or are we like Adam because we sin? You favor the
second while I favor the first. More to the point, I think you ignore
Paul's clear statements in Romans 5 who points to how sin and death came
upon us from the sin of one man, Adam.
David Miller wrote:
>> Keep reading the chapter, and it becomes even more
>> clear that Paul is teaching that both death and sin have
>> been passed onto us by Adam.
>>
>> Rom 5:17 For if BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE DEATH
>> REIGNED by one; much more they which receive abundance
>> of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by
>> one, Jesus Christ.)
>> Rom 5:18 Therefore as BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE
>> JUDGMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN to condemnation;
>> even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon
>> all men unto justification of life.
>> Rom 5:19 For as BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY
>> WERE MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many
>> be made righteous.
John wrote:
> David, just as we are not made righteous apart from some
> level of joint participation with Christ, so we are not made
> sinners solely by the transgression of Adam
I agree. This has been a major point of mine in the past.
John wrote:
> You quote R5:17 as if 5:12 and 3:23 do not exist !!
On the contrary, I agree that all men have sinned, as you point out, but not
to the EXCLUSION of the other points being made. We need to consider all
these passages together.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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