Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

[Debbie Sawczak]

Perhaps it is time I stuck my neck out and said something.   I think Judy is closer to the truth on this one than either David or JD, at least in terms of the severity of the human condition. We are all born with the "disease" and therefore manifest its symptoms, and it infects all aspects of our humanity. I do not believe Scripture teaches that we are born innocent or oriented towards God. David, your dualism obliges you to say that, since you posit a separate spirit-entity specially created by God, but I don't see support anywhere in Scripture for our coming into the world (since Adam) with an innately good spirit. If anything, the contrary: it is with respect to our very ability to recognize God and perceive the truth about him and our relation to him that we are most impaired. By your account the struggle of our life is between our good spirits and the evil bodies in which they are entrapped. Nonsense. It is at the core that we are twisted. There is no struggle at all until, by gracious revelation, we become aware of our sin and of God's claim. If it weren't for that, we would go on cheerfully and comfortably sinning all our lives.   Debbie          ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us > Gary wrote: >> ftr, it really looks like JDs assessment is on >> target and DavidM is in denial > > It only looks that way to the ignorant when you take out the Scriptures I > had offered and chop up my quotes.  I'm just standing by the Bible. > > The quote from which JD takes his "we have sinned" is yanked out of context > to say something exclusive of the context in which it was said.  Here is the > passage: > > Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by > sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: > > Paul is arguing that sin entered into the world by one man, and death by > sin, the very thing that JD attempts to counter.  Paul leads us from this > observation, which JD attempts to deny, to say that death has passed upon > all men, "for that all have sinned."  The Greek word translated "for" here > is not "gar" (the way JD seems to be reading the passage), but rather it is > "epi" which means "on."  As I said before, Paul is giving us a reason we > have confidence that sin passed unto all men from Adam.  The reason is that > all have sinned. > > Keep reading the chapter, and it becomes even more clear that Paul is > teaching that both death and sin have been passed onto us by Adam. > > Rom 5:17 For if BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE DEATH REIGNED by one; much more they > which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall > reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) > Rom 5:18 Therefore as BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE JUDGMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN to > condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon > all men unto justification of life. > Rom 5:19 For as BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so by the > obedience of one shall many be made righteous. > > So, Gary, you don't believe in the Adamic fall or original sin?  I am > somewhat surprised that you would depart from these particular orthodox > teachings of Christianity.  Is this part of the neo-orthodoxy in America > now? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:52:40 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > JD: >> You have taken  mankind's failure out of the equation.. [while] Paul >> declares that we die because we >>have all have done the very same thing --  we have sinned. > > DavidM: > <<..Paul's argument is that both death and sin have been passed onto us by > Adam. >> > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > >