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I am using disease metaphorically to carry
the points (a) that our sinfulness cannot be reduced to wrong actions
but is a condition, and (b) that we are helpless to do anything about
it. These two points are related. Jonathan's word "organic" is probably a
better way to express this; I am agreeing with what he said
below:
Here the organic nature of [sin]
is important...
By relegating sin to what we do, as
opposed to who we are, we no longer need God's grace to be holy. Hence
Izzy's silly story she posted the other day regarding how one just needs to make
better choices when faced with adversity - pure humanism.
...i.e., we are not in a position/condition
simply to make better choices, and could not by that method fix our
predicament.
I would also agree, though, that humanity before
the fall was "less" than what we-in-Christ are and will be.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:59
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and
the rest of us
I am not sure it is a disease that we are talking about. I do
not see Adam and Eve as being any different in nature than myself or they
would have never sinned. I have come to believe that the it
is a mistake to think that God created them as perfected individuals.
The Garden was never the goal. Christ was always that which completed their life and
ours. It has always been that we stand in His righteousness and at
the cross He completed this work. Phil 2:12-13 was as true for Adam
after the Garden as it is for me, today. I do believe in a fall -
but I do not believe it involved the nature of man.
Comments, please.
JD
-----Original Message----- From: Debbie Sawczak < debbie@kest. com> To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:31:16
-0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Perhaps it is time I stuck my neck out and said
something.
I think Judy is closer to the truth on this one
than either David or JD, at least in terms
of the severity of the human condition. We are all born with the "disease" and
therefore manifest its symptoms, and it infects all aspects of our
humanity. I do not believe Scripture teaches that we are
born innocent or oriented towards God. David, your dualism obliges you to
say that, since you posit a separate spirit-entity specially
created by God, but I don't see support anywhere in Scripture for our
coming into the world (since Adam) with an innately good spirit. If
anything, the contrary: it is with respect to our very ability to recognize
God and perceive the truth about him and our relation to him that we
are most impaired. By your account the struggle of our life is between our
good spirits and the evil bodies in which they are entrapped. Nonsense. It is
at the core that we are twisted. There is no struggle at all u ntil, by
gracious revelation, we become aware of our sin and of God's claim. If it
weren't for that, we would go on cheerfully and comfortably sinning all our
lives.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:04
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the
rest of us
> Gary wrote:
>> ftr,
it really looks like JDs assessment is
on
>> target and DavidM is in
denial
>
> It only looks that way to the ignorant when you take
out the Scriptures I
> had offered and chop up my quotes. I'm
just standing by the Bible.
>
> The quote from which JD takes his "we have sinned" is yanked out of
context
> to say something exclusive of the context in which it was
said. Here is the
> passage:
>
> Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered
into the world, and death by
> sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:
>
> Paul is arguing that sin entered
into the world by one man, and death by
> sin, the very thing that
JD attempts to counter. Paul leads
us from this
> observation, which JD attempts to deny, to say that death has passed upon
>
all men, "for that all have sinned." The Greek word translated "for"
here
> is not "gar" (the way JD
seems to be reading the passage), but rather it is
> "epi" which means "on." As I said before,
Paul is giving us a reason we
> have confidence that sin passed unto
all men from Adam. The reason is that
> all have sinned.
>
> Keep reading the chapter, and it becomes even more clear that Paul is
> teaching that both death and sin have been passed onto us by
Adam.
>
> Rom 5:17 For if BY
ONE MAN'S OFFENCE DEATH REIGNED by one; much more they
> which receive
abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall
> reign in
life by one, Jesus Christ.)
> Rom
5:18 Therefore as BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE JUDGMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN to
>
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon
> all men unto justification of life.
> Rom 5:19 For as BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS,
so by the
> obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
>
> So, Gary, you don't believe in the Adamic fall or original sin? I am
> somewhat
surprised that you would depart from these particular orthodox
>
teachings of Christianity. Is this part of the neo-orthodoxy in America
> now?
>
> Peace be with you.
> David
Miller.
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:52:40 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
writes:
> JD:
>> You have
taken mankind's failure out of the
equation.. [while] Paul
>> declares that we die because
we
>>have all have done the very same thing -- we have
sinned.
>
> DavidM:
>
<<..Paul's argument is that both death and sin have been passed onto us
by
> Adam. >>
>
> ----------
> "Let your
speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org>
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