FYI, I agree with David's perspective on this completely. We are not born guilty of sin, but with a fleshly bent towards sin. No one except Jesus has lived sinlessly. I still wonder how He did it--so amazing.
Question for DM or Debbie, or anyone on TT. How would you define sin? izzy -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:01 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Debbie wrote: > I do not believe Scripture teaches that we are > born innocent or oriented towards God. David, > your dualism obliges you to say that, since you > posit a separate spirit-entity specially created by > God, but I don't see support anywhere in Scripture > for our coming into the world (since Adam) with > an innately good spirit. First, let me say that I did not adopt "dualism" and then posit the evidences needed to support it, so be careful of how you argue about what "my dualism" supposedly obliges me to say. I can drop dualism today if it appears to be an unsatisfactory model for explaining all my observations. Sometimes I actually operate from a trinity perspective of man, but dualism is satisfactory in many cases as a rough model of explanation. Perhaps you overlooked my answer in a previous post because your description above does not properly characterize my perspective. Although I believe we are born in innocency, I do not believe that we are born oriented toward God. My memory of my first prayer to God was one of utter disbelief that there was a God up in the sky listening to me. I had no inclination to follow him at all, except that something in my spirit drew me to him when I was five years old. I believe that was my spirit being proded by the Holy Spirit, because prior to that, my spirit did not have any inclination toward God at all. Let me go back to a previous point I made concerning the conscience. Do you recognize that people inherently see something innocent in infants and even in young children? If not, let me know and I will be more explicit with what I am thinking about with some examples. This would be an empirical observation in support of my perspective that newborns have a lack of sinful defilement which they take on later in life after they have sinned. Please keep in mind that I do not say that infants are born without any sinful nature. Rather, I say that the sinful nature exists in the flesh, and their spirit is dimmed by that flesh, although innocent at the time they are born. As for Scripture concerning the idea that our spirit is not completely dark (which is a better way of characterizing my position than what you had written), we could start with John 1:9 which says, "that was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." We could also look at Prov. 20:27 which says, "The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord." There are other passages as well. Debbie wrote: > If anything, the contrary: it is with respect to our > very ability to recognize God and perceive the > truth about him and our relation to him that we > are most impaired. I agree with what you just wrote. What you just said is not contrary to my perspective. Debbie wrote: > By your account the struggle of our life is > between our good spirits and the evil bodies > in which they are entrapped. Nonsense. > It is at the core that we are twisted. There is > no struggle at all until, by gracious revelation, > we become aware of our sin and of God's claim. > If it weren't for that, we would go on cheerfully > and comfortably sinning all our lives. You abbreviate my understanding too much. There is a path one takes in life. When a person sins, he defiles both his spirit and soul. As he sins more, he becomes sinful to the very core as you say, sinful in body, soul, and spirit. So the path of most people is one whereby they are twisted and sinful to the very core, prior to their coming to an awareness of what sin is. When the word of God comes, it brings the knowledge of God. Then man becomes aware of his sin, and as you say, he becomes more frustrated at his inability to keep God's word once this knowledge comes to him. The word of God aggravates sin, because of the power of the flesh to keep man in sin. When a person comes into Christ, and he is filled with the Holy Spirit, the struggle ends. Now he enters the rest of God and has power over sin. Nevertheless, he still exists in the likeness of sinful flesh. Therefore, the flesh must be denied as he walks in the Spirit. In order to glorify God in his flesh, he must not follow his flesh, but rather his spirit as it has been inspired by the Holy Spirit. As long as he walks as a spiritual man, he is fine, but if he were to give into the desires of his flesh once again, he would frustrate the grace which he has received from God. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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