David and all: thank you taking the time to read CAREFULLY what I have written below. In my first paragraph, I have fashioned 5 or 6 questions (highlighted in bold print) that I consider important to the continuing discussion. I sincerely do not want to misrepresent your (DM's) thinking - I am not sure that I have done so, even with this posting. You have (twice now) gone out of your way to present me as a dunce. The least you can do, in view of my perceived inabilities, is to work with me on the matter. You're the one with the PhD - not me. And I must bow to that accomplishment (for the time being). You are the scholar, here, not me ----------- and I am not being scornful; I am being extremely serious. So I will appreciate your continued help as you review this post.
Thanks in advance
In your concise statement below, you omitted the born (baptized ) of the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. You once questioned me about not so believing. What is your current belief on this point. You have also stated in previous posts that "the cross covers only past sins." Current belief? From your "concise" statement "relating to what [I] have written," you apparently believe that Adam's sin introduced a process that led to mankind's total depravity - that such was n
ot the case immediately after Adam's fall from physical grace. This process you call evolution and you blame this evolution for the changes in all of creation, including the sinful nature of man (!!!!!) . You write: Evolutionary processes began shaping the destiny of both man, animals, and
plants at a drastic rate, much higher than the levels presently observed. ..... A most unusual thought. Boy!, the dualism of which I typified my review of your theology was more applicable than I had envisioned. It appears that man(kind) ceased to be a "spirit ual" creature on any level, fully at the mercies of the evolutionary processes brought into play with Adam's sin. You re-enforce this theological claim by continuing : My body ultimately was inherited from him, with many changes caused by mutations and
evolutionary factors that have heightened its inclination toward iniquity. With all this mutation a goin on, here, how is it that we are descendants of Adam in any provable way? Big question, David: when one is "born again" (a specific historical event in your mind (?)) , why a re these evolutionary changes not reveresed at that time? I mean, the mutations that shaped Adam's destiny (he went to hell ?? !!) took place while he was alive - as I understand your concise statement below. Why did it not work in much the same way IN REVERSE when we have been born again? I see that you do not believe this reversal to be complete until after the resurrection of the dead (and follows Jesus Christ with his entire being, looking forward to the time when his flesh will die and he will be reborn in the flesh as he has already been reborn in the spirit..) Is it possible that the comparison between Adam and Christ is not to be overdone -- that Paul never intended that Adam be the antithetical Christ except for the sake of the specific point which was , sin and death BEGIN with Adam; righteousness and life BEGIN with (in ) Christ, period????
plants at a drastic rate, much higher than the levels presently observed. ..... A most unusual thought. Boy!, the dualism of which I typified my review of your theology was more applicable than I had envisioned. It appears that man(kind) ceased to be a "spirit ual" creature on any level, fully at the mercies of the evolutionary processes brought into play with Adam's sin. You re-enforce this theological claim by continuing : My body ultimately was inherited from him, with many changes caused by mutations and
evolutionary factors that have heightened its inclination toward iniquity. With all this mutation a goin on, here, how is it that we are descendants of Adam in any provable way? Big question, David: when one is "born again" (a specific historical event in your mind (?)) , why a re these evolutionary changes not reveresed at that time? I mean, the mutations that shaped Adam's destiny (he went to hell ?? !!) took place while he was alive - as I understand your concise statement below. Why did it not work in much the same way IN REVERSE when we have been born again? I see that you do not believe this reversal to be complete until after the resurrection of the dead (and follows Jesus Christ with his entire being, looking forward to the time when his flesh will die and he will be reborn in the flesh as he has already been reborn in the spirit..) Is it possible that the comparison between Adam and Christ is not to be overdone -- that Paul never intended that Adam be the antithetical Christ except for the sake of the specific point which was , sin and death BEGIN with Adam; righteousness and life BEGIN with (in ) Christ, period????
Here is a statement you made to Debbie recently - which makes me think that my review was not far off the mark.
You abbreviate my understanding too much. There is a path one takes in
life. When a person sins, he defiles both his spirit and soul. As he sins
more, he becomes sinful to the very core as you say, sinful in body, soul,
and spirit. So the path of most people is one whereby they are twisted and
sinful to the very core, prior to their coming to an awareness of what sin
is.
When the word of God comes, it brings the knowledge of God. Then man
becomes aware of his sin, and as you say, he becomes more frustrated at his
inability to keep God's word once this knowledge comes to him. The word of
God aggravates sin, because of the power of the flesh to keep man in sin.
When a person comes into Christ, and he is filled with the Holy Spirit, the
struggle ends. Now he enters the rest of God and has power over sin.
Nevertheless, he still exists in the likeness of sinful flesh. Therefore,
the flesh must be denied as he walks in the Spirit. In order to glorify God
in his flesh, he must not follow his flesh, but rather his spirit as it has
been inspired by the Holy Spirit. As long as he walks as a spiritual man,
he is fine, but if he were to give into the desires of his flesh once again, he would frustrate the grace which he has received from God.
life. When a person sins, he defiles both his spirit and soul. As he sins
more, he becomes sinful to the very core as you say, sinful in body, soul,
and spirit. So the path of most people is one whereby they are twisted and
sinful to the very core, prior to their coming to an awareness of what sin
is.
When the word of God comes, it brings the knowledge of God. Then man
becomes aware of his sin, and as you say, he becomes more frustrated at his
inability to keep God's word once this knowledge comes to him. The word of
God aggravates sin, because of the power of the flesh to keep man in sin.
When a person comes into Christ, and he is filled with the Holy Spirit, the
struggle ends. Now he enters the rest of God and has power over sin.
Nevertheless, he still exists in the likeness of sinful flesh. Therefore,
the flesh must be denied as he walks in the Spirit. In order to glorify God
in his flesh, he must not follow his flesh, but rather his spirit as it has
been inspired by the Holy Spirit. As long as he walks as a spiritual man,
he is fine, but if he were to give into the desires of his flesh once again, he would frustrate the grace which he has received from God.
Please note the similarities between this statement (above) and mine immediately below.
Ok, DM, let's get it right. Before I "accept Christ," I have this dualism that expresses itself in a conflict between good and evil. Evil finds a source for _expression_ within my very "flesh" (bones, blood vessels, flat arches and the like) and reigns as victor until I accept the invitation and am born again with the evidence of speaking in t
ongues. At that point, sin becomes a none issue because I have and obey the Holy spirit of God. I continue to grow in knowledge and wisdom, but the evils of the flesh are subdued and the "struggle [between good and evil] ends." My salvation is not a done deal, however, because, if I turn and start serving the f lesh [which was ironically put to death - JD], I am lost and there is no hope for me. The cross was only about past sin
s.
Please note the dissimilarities between my statement above and the one immediately below.
Of interest to me is DM's reference to the above and his belief that he is responding to that statement ( here is a statement of my belief relating to what you have
written. DM)He apparently sees Adam and Eve throughout my review, when, in fact, there is
no such reference. Makes me wonder if David's inability to understand my review has anythingto do with the possibility that he actually did not read my posted review .
In concise form, here is a statement of my belief relating to what you have written. believe Adam and Eve were real people. I believe Adam was created as Genesis says, from the dust of the ground, and I believe that Eve was created from a rib taken from his side. I do not believe that we are genetically descended from Apes, which are supposed to have descended from reptiles, which are supposed to have descended from amphibians, which are supposed to have descended from fish, which are supposed to have descended from invertebrate aquatic creatures, which are supposed to have descended from some simple single celled organism, which is supposed to have been created through some undemonstrated process of abiogensis. I believe that Adam and Eve were not created as mortal creatures. They as well as the rest of creation ate only plants, not animals. Animals did not kill each other for food; hence, there was no death. A time came when Adam and Eve sinned. Eve, having been deceived by Satan, joined him in his rebellion against Yahweh. Adam, in his love for Eve, followed her. This brought death upon him that very day. I believe that drastic changes took place, and began taking place at a rapid rate, within his physical body. The chemistry of his body changed, as did the chemistry of the rest of creation. Evolutionary processes began shaping the destiny of both man, animals, and plants at a drastic rate, much higher than the levels presently observed. Those processes quickly selected flesh which exhibited behavior that was selfish, propagating those genes that yielded sinful behavior into the population of man. For example, righteous Able's descendants were cut off by Cain, yet Cain's descendants propagated and flourished in the earth. To make matters worse, angels joining in the rebellion against God began producing children by cohabitating with women of human kind. This introduced additional genetic material and contributed to the process of man's flesh becoming exceedingly sinful. The world became so bad, that God had to destroy it with a flood. I believe that only 8 souls survived this flood. The flood brought huge environmental changes to the earth. Prior to the flood, the atmospheric conditions were much different. There had been no rain. Seasons were much more mild. Soon after the flood, in the days of Pelag, the continents split apart and rapidly moved apart, creating oceans between the land masses. The lifespan of man rapidly declined in response to these environmental changes. Evolutionary processes, once again, took off at a rapid rate, evidenced by the production of giant men like the Anakims. Such again directed the flesh toward more selfish / sinful behavior. Therefore, as we come to our time, I have an understanding that behavior which comes from the flesh is inherently selfish, and, therefore, inherently sinful. The spirit, on the other hand, has a lamp of God within it, a spark of the Logos. That lamp is deadened, however, by the usurpation of the flesh. As we get older and our mind is able to begin to hear the voice of the conscience and hear the Logos actually articulated by those who have been touched more readily by Him, our spirit begins to respond to that, if we are inclined with a love toward the Logos. On the other hand, if we hate the Logos within our heart, we flee from such. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is at work calling those whom he wills, and at some point, many of us find ourselves experiencing a new birth, not a birth of the flesh, but a birth of the Spirit. The weight of our sins is lifted, our conscience is suddenly clear and alive. We slowly but surely begin to apprehend the things of God's kingdom. This leads us to pursue the kingdom that we might possess it. In order to pursue the kingdom, we understand that righteousness is required. The flesh, on the other hand, has no interest in such things. Therefore, we must completely surrender ourselves unto the Logos and trust in Him with all of our hearts. This necessitates ignoring the flesh, and even considering it dead. It means putting down those temptations that would lead us toward that which is against the Logos, and embracing all that is about the Logos. So is born the spiritual man, the one who denies himself and his flesh, and follows Jesus Christ with his entire being, looking forward to the time when his flesh will die and he will be reborn in the flesh as he has already been reborn in the spirit. So concerning my relationship to Adam, it is the flesh. My body ultimately was inherited from him, with many changes caused by mutations and evolutionary factors that have heightened its inclination toward iniquity. What I inherit from Adam is an almost worthless body of sin. Concerning my relationship to Christ, it is spiritual. I have inherited from Christ his spirit, that I might conquer and live above the impulses of my physical body. I no longer serve my flesh, but I serve the spirit of the risen Christ. While I perceive myself to be genetically related to Adam and descended from him, I do not see myself as having any spiritual inheritance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, in regards to Jesus Christ, I see myself to have spiritual inheritance from him, but I do not see myself as having any physical inheritance from him at this time. Soon to come, I expect to inherit from him a physical body like his that is actually so different from this one that I must call it a spiritual body. By spiritual body, I do not mean that it is ghostly or without coporeal substance, but rather that it is pure and fashioned perfectly for the spirit, unlike my present body which is corrupted and can only temporarily connect with my spirit. You asked for a concise statement, so I will stop here. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
