When Paul asks us to pray without ceasing - he associates an ontology with prayer that melds the disciple and his God. Thanks for this posted explanation below.
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:33:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus
>I think the point of the illustration of asking for bread and receiving
> bread instead of a stone is that if parents being evil do not give something
> bad to their children when the child asks for something good, then we should
> think at least as good about God. Indeed, God does not give us something
> bad when we ask him for something good.
>
> However, you have moved it toward something else, saying that if we ask for
> something bad or useless, God is still going to give us something good.
> bread instead of a stone is that if parents being evil do not give something
> bad to their children when the child asks for something good, then we should
> think at least as good about God. Indeed, God does not give us something
> bad when we ask him for something good.
>
> However, you have moved it toward something else, saying that if we ask for
> something bad or useless, God is still going to give us something good.
Yes, I realize I am going further there; I did so on purpose, and said explicitly that I was doing so. But it is not an unnatural extension. Read on.
I may have given the impression that I think God's will is so obscure that we are likely to miss it. I don't. I also don't think it's true that in any given situation, there is one specific thing that is God's will and everything else is "outside" his will. That's why I put "the wrong thing" in quotes. However, I do think sometimes we misread circumstances so as to ask for something that seems good but that he in his greater wisdom decides not to give us, giving us something else instead. Paul, in the famous example, asked more than once for the "thorn" (whatever that was) to be removed. I'm sure he did so in good faith and not foolishly. But it was not removed. Instead, he was given something better: grace to deal with the "thorn", as well as a profound and practical understanding of how God's strength is perfected in our weakness. I disagree with the idea that if this sequence of events ever arises in one's prayer
life, or if ever one does not know what to pray for, that is a sign of spiritual infancy.
The thing about a stone, of course, is that it isn't edible at all, under any circumstances. I know. I don't think we regularly ask for stones. It is more like my son: we ask for cake when what we need (and are given) is bread. But from the point of view of the fact that we are denied the cake and given something better, it might as well be a stone. That was what I meant by poetry: I was taking a bit of a licence with the stone-bread illustration for the sake of the allusion to Jesus' speech, and the resultant connection to the notion of God caring for us like a parent does. Does that make sense to you at all?
> What use then is prayer or faith? It seems like you think God just does
> what he wants for us regardless of what we ask for.
> what he wants for us regardless of what we ask for.
I don't see the logic in that question. What do you think is the "use" of prayer or faith? I see faithful prayer as being more than just asking for things and "getting them right". It is more about fellowship and trust/surrender. Prayer is a process and often changes how we see things, over the course of a long time. But I'm sure you believe this too. I think we must acknowledge that there are mysterious aspects to prayer. If you think that's a copout, so be it.
> Now there is only one way to receive from God as we mature in him, and that
> is that we exercise faith. Those who do not pray in faith do not receive
> what they ask for. Those who do pray in faith always receive what they ask
> for.
>
> 2 Corinthians 1:20
> (20) For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the
> glory of God by us.
> is that we exercise faith. Those who do not pray in faith do not receive
> what they ask for. Those who do pray in faith always receive what they ask
> for.
>
> 2 Corinthians 1:20
> (20) For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the
> glory of God by us.
I do not think this passage teaches what you say it does. I know Scripture teaches us to pray in faith. What do you understand by that? Whatever it is, it doesn't make God into a slot-machine. Nor do I think it entitles us to say to people who didn't receive what they prayed for that they must not have prayed in faith.
Debbie
