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The law of MAN(?)ogamy? It's always been in place.
The problem was, is and, will be the law of WOMANogamy? Chauvinism, sexism and
the like have prevailed, do prevail and, sadly, will prevail amongst so-called
'believers' of all stripes.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: October 16, 2005 05:06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judging by
Doctrine
Judy Taylor wrote:
DAVEH: I believe there have been times when the Lord has not
only allowed polygamy, but has actually encouraged it.
I'm curious about what you base the above
belief on DaveH because Jesus said it was not so in the beginning. God
ordained marriage between one man and one woman; He told them to "be
fruitful and multiply" When questioned about bills of divorcement Jesus said these were because of the hardness
of men's hearts (due to the
fall).
DAVEH: When was the law of monogamy introduced,
Judy? IF you believe it was initiated in the Garden of Eden, then at
what point was it first violated?
Well Daveh there is no record that Adam had more
than one wife is there? We don't know about Cain and
Abel
but by Genesis 6 mankind was in such a mess that
God was repenting about ever getting involved with them to
begin
with. DAVEH: I'm not sure how that answers my question,
Judy. When do you believe the law of manogamy was initiated?
And....Do you believe those OT prophets who practiced polygamy violated
it?
Was there any prohibition against polygamy in the Law of Moses?
If God did not want polygamy practiced, there would have been a formal
prohibition, wouldn't you think?
Not necessarily - God knew what was in man - just
as is written of Jesus in John 2:24,25 and not much would
change before the
resurrection.
DAVEH: If God knows they were transgressing, why do
you think he would not bring it to their attention?
If on the other hand, you believe God did not
want men to live polygamous lives, then how does one reconcile
that many OT people lived in polygamous relationships....including
prophets of God without being reprimanded for it,
Mankind's fallen nature but this is not what God
ordained at the beginning: see Mark 10:6-12. I would
say
that in God's eyesight a polygamous relationship
is also an adulterous one. DAVEH: Those passages do not say such as I read
them. Do you believe that is the message conveyed in them?
Adultery was a part of
the Law, yet many OT prophets were polygamists. Logically, wouldn't they
have been committing adultery by having plural wives IF in God's eyesight a polygamous relationship is also an
adulterous one??? Yet the Bible does not
condemn them for such, excepting for the Bathsheba incident which is clearly
sinful despite it's polygamous overtones. Had David not been married at
all, his actions would have been a transgression, I think you'd
agree.
God may not have dealt with
this under the old covenant but today He tells
all men to "Repent" DAVEH: Where in the Bible (including the NT) do you
believe He tells all men to "Repent" of polygamy?
excepting those instances where such action was based on sinful
intent and actions, such as was the case with Bathsheba. 2Sam
12:8-12 even suggests that in the aforementioned incident, God gave those
wives to David,
and furthermore would give those wives to his neighbor. Does
that not imply that God might be condoning this polygamous
relationship?
No it does not imply that God condones polygamy;
this was a middle east custom that didn't come from
God. DAVEH: I had not heard that reasoning before.
Do you have any specific evidence that suggests the Hebrews borrowed polygamy
from other nations?
Was David criticized by the Lord for his multitude of wives?....No,
just for the manner in which he acquired one of them. If
polygamy were sinful in the OT times, why would an OT character described
as doing right in the eyes of the Lord, only be chastened for wrongly
taking one particular wife? (1Kg 15:5)
God knows our frame and could be he chose his
battles. DAVEH: I don't quite understand why you frame it
this way Judy. IF polygamy of the OT prophets were sinful in God's eyes,
it seems to me that it would have been easy for God to include it in the
Law. I don't see why you would consider it a battle from which God would
shy away...... Can you cite any other similar type battles the Lord has
chosen not to deal with?
You can see what this proclivity did in the life
of
David's son Solomon I hope. His pagan wives
turned his heart causing him to die young and lose the
Kingdom
in spite of God's pleasure with him and all the
wisdom showered upon him at the
beginning.
So Judy.....at what point to
you believe polygamy became unlawful?
At the beginning .. I believe God put up with it
rather than ordained it. A man and a woman become ONE
flesh
What kind of flesh do a man and ten women
become??
DAVEH: I suspect that is a rhetorical question. I
wonder how Abraham or other polygamous prophets would have answered
it.....
BTW.........What better way for men to fulfill
God's command to "be fruitful and multiply"
than by polygamy!
There is a family in Springvale, AR, one man and
one woman who prove you wrong, they have had 16 beautiful children in
17yrs. I would say that this family has
truly honored God's command by
faith.
DAVEH: I just saw those folks on TV a couple nights
ago.....was it Hannity & Colmes...or perhaps O'Reilly....? Those
folks sure have a lot more energy than me!!! :-)
At other times he has forbidden it. As I see it, most
Christians only acknowledge those times when it was discouraged or
forbidden, apparently without recognizing that some of the Lord's chosen
people (including his prophets) had multiple wives without His
condemnation.
God put up with a lot in former times, Paul says
he winked at it but he now commands everyone to "repent!"
DAVEH: When do you believe he told everyone
to "repent!" from polygamy? DAVEH: Acts 17.......
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's
device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at;
but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in
righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given
assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the
dead.
........Seems to me the context of this
applies to idol worship. Isn't taking this out of context and applying
it to something totally unrelated putting an unfair spin on Scripture,
Judy?
From the time of John the Baptist
on... DAVEH:
Is such recorded.....or, are you just assuming?
Do you believe in a Jesus that allows marriage in heaven?
Not necessary ..
DAVEH: Do you
believe marriage is ordained of God.....and that it is His desire for all to
be married?
However, as you may know but may not have
considered......procreation on earth can be accomplished without
marriage. So......do you suppose there could be a deeper reason for
marriage other than simply procreation, Judy? For instance.....IF
the only reason for marriage were procreation, then why would divorce by
deemed so undesirable in the Lord's eyes? After child bearing
years are passed, what possible reason would there be to continue being
married? Wouldn't you think the Lord could/would allow divorces
subsequent to bearing and raising families?
People also procreate without marriage because of
sin and that because of the fall of mankind and rebellion
toward God. Divorce is undesirable because
it breaks the law of love. DAVEH: Do you believe death breaks the law of love as
well?
Marriage is much more than
procreating.
Marriage is teamwork, friendship, and
companionship undergirded by love. DAVEH: Would not those same characteristics be
applicable in heaven?
Children are just for a
season.
From my (LDS) perspective,
marriage is much more than simply for procreating mortal children.
And, proper marriage (sealing) do not end in divorce or death, as do
marriages performed by most Christian ministers.
If we looked at some honest statistics Daveh I
figure LDS marriages probably equal those of other persuasions so far as
divorce is concerned - and every Mormon will die married or
not. DAVEH: I'm not sure of why you would bring that up,
Judy. I do not disagree BTW, but it doesn't have much to do with our
discussion any more than if I quoted....
Here's the really
bad news: Barna finds that the divorce rate among born-again Christians (27
percent) and fundamentalist Christians (30 percent) actually is higher than
the rate for non-Christians (23 percent). And yes, his survey asked if the
people had been divorced before or after they became Christians. Eighty-seven
percent said "after."
.........It is an
interesting statistic, but unless I'm missing something......what is its
pertinence to this thread?
The Lord has suggested that marriages should not be put asunder, yet
that is exactly what happens in a traditional Christian wedding where the
pastor proclaims the marriage will end at death. If God does
not want those who are joined together to part....why do you think most
Christians believe the Lord does not families to be united in
heaven?
Because marriage is temporal and sometimes one
partner dies before the other causing them to
part.
DAVEH: As I see it, that is the
reason Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven.....so
whatsoever though shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven. What do you think those keys were
used to bind on earth, Judy?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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