Re: [TruthTalk] Back tot he garden

[Terry Clifton]

Let me say first that I suspect that we differ on many points, Bill.  That does not in any way presume that we are not brothers or that we should not love one another.   I see many calls for repentance recorded in the Bible.  Jesus Himself told the adultress, " Go and sin no more".  That meant a 180 turn, a new direction, which is what repentance is all about.  If one will not do that, one cannot be saved.  Salvation is dependant on turning from what you want to what Christ wants.  Denying self, living for Him.  Anything less than an honest effort in that direction, in my opinion, is not faith. God made salvation possible so that we could be the bride of Christ.  That requires a "Yes Lord" on our part.  God will not force  His bride to love Him.  It must be voluntary, a decision we make.  Otherwise it would be bondage, not a relationship. We agree that repentance is for those who are  capable of understanding sin and it's consequences,  but I do not see repentance as unnecessary for us because it is unnecessary for them.  That would, to me, indicate a very inflexable God.  We both know that this is not the case.  I see us as both saying that repentance will come about if you are saved.  You apparently see it as a natural result, an act of gratitude.  It is that, I agree, but it, to my thinking is more than that.  If one has never been broken over his/her sinfulness, one cannot possibly fully understand what Christ delivered us from.  To be an enemy of God at one moment, bound for eternal agony in Hell, and then to be forgiven and adopted into the family the next moment is undoubtedly the result of God's mercy and love.  I can see why you might think that it is all His doing, but a covenant, even though instituted by one party, must have the terms of the covenant accepted by the other party to be effective.  I doubt that you will agree, but at least maybe we can learn from Dave H and disagree agreeably. Terry Taylor wrote: I don't think repentance is a condition for salvation, Terry -- not anyone's; hence not babies either. Rather, repentance is a result of salvation (a position, I might add, which is consistent with the idea that salvation is entirely of the Lord). Let them repent who are old enough to know what it means to have a change of mind.   Since you so obviously understand this stuff: What do you think David meant when he said he was sinful at birth, sinful from the time his mother conceived him? And what was Paul talking about when he said that death spread to all, because all have sinned?   Bill   ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Back tot he garden What sins do these babies need to repent of, Bill?  Some things are so obvious that they need not be quibbled over. Taylor wrote: "Yet salvation still requires a decision to follow Christ and turning to Him from sin (repentance)" (Emphasis mine).  All those poor little babies who die still in the womb: damned -- no salvation for them; can't meet the requirements. ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Back tot he garden I saw that.  As usual, we are on the same page. =================================== ShieldsFamily wrote: Agreed, Terry—I was just writing about that before I got this message. J iz This Bible believing fundie believes that you never could come to Christ without the urging of the Holy Spirit.  He always makes the first move.  Yet salvation still requires a decision to follow Christ and turning to Him from sin (repentance).  Only after that decision is made is one filled with the Spirit and enabled to walk the walk.  The new testament is filled with such examples. Terry