No problem, Dave. Even though I love mormons, you can call me whatever you
like. It is mormonISM that I have a problem with. Besides, there are plenty
of websites and books, many written by ex-mormons who speak honestly about
these things, on which I can rely for the truth.
So, based on what I have learned from websites and books I have read,
mormons invoke the name of Satan in their temple ritual.
Do you uinderstand why I see the footprint of Satan on mormonism? And this
is just one little footprint...I have encountered many. I am not asking you
if you agree with my assessment...I am only asking if you understand why I
think the way I do about mormonism and Satan.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perry & Dave: inquiring minds want to know
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:04:57 -0700
*
I am being serious here, and am coming to you for the truth. You often
say that if i want to know what mormons believe, then ask a mormon.*
DAVEH: The problem is that you are an anti-Mormon, Perry. Trying to
discuss LDS theology with an anti-Mormon is worse than futile, as it is
your goal to denigrate the things in which I believe.
If I were to deny the *Pay Lay Ale* accusation below, would you believe
me? I doubt it. Even if you did, it would just lead you to ask other
things in an effort to find a way to criticize and accuse. For you to
even suggest you are* coming to you for the truth* makes me question your
sincerity in wanting to know anything about LDS theology. Your past
actions betray your intent, IMO.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
*
I am being serious here, and am coming to you for the truth. You often
say that if i want to know what mormons believe, then ask a mormon.*
Why do you guys raise your arms "to the square" and chant "*Pay Lay
Ale*" three times? Do you know what that means? You see, I found on the
following web page
From http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templeofthegodmakers.htm:
(and have read in other books and web pages with similar statements) that
contained the following:
"If you are still not sure if they [mormons] pray to the false god or
the true God, did you know that the chant has been changed? Until just
before 1930, they chanted "Pale hale hale" or "Pale ale ale." What a
coincidence! The direct Hebrew translation of "Pele Heylel" is "Marvelous
Lucifer"!(4)
Can you see why I interpret things like this as being the footprint of
Satan? Now, as a momron, perhaps you can explain to me what "Pay Lay Ale"
really means, and why it might have been changed in 1930. Weren't the
words of the ceremony inspired by god? If so, then why the changes?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Perry & Dave: Civil Discussion
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:32:32 -0700
DAVEH: I want to thank you for the change in tone, Perry. I will
endeavor to reciprocate. Hopefully we can have a civil discussion
without the need to go into an attack mode.....
*your "apology" is really full of further insults, negating any veiled
attempt at an apology. *
DAVEH: That is exactly correct, Perry. That was my intent, and I'm
glad you understood the implication. I'll admit to reaching a point of
being fed up with the garbage that has been cast my way, and that was my
way of retaliating. Tain't very Christlike, is it. For that I
apologize.
*More than once I have seen you rely on that to conveniently "forget"
things. *
DAVEH: Yes, I do forget things. But....I also know my nature. And, my
nature is not to badger somebody over something for which there has been
an apology. Like you said....I didn't complain before you apologize. I
sincerely don't think I complained afterward....I just don't do such.
My suggestion is that IF you can't back up an accusation, be very
careful in making it. There is no way for me to prove or even remember
something that was never said. So...IF I said it....IMO, you should be
prepared to either prove it with a quote that is not taken out of
context, or retract the accusation. That's the standard I try to live
by, and I would hope you would apply it to your life as well. The loose
accusations that are adrift in TT are simply not acceptable standards for
Christian adults, IMO.
*even when you know someone is offended by a bad joke you made, you
cannot offer a sincere apology. You feign an apology and use it to mask
further insults. I call that "sly".*
DAVEH: That's because I found your response to be highly unbelievable.
A guy as toughened to religious discussions as I perceive you to be
should have a bit thicker skin, IMO. For such a trite and common
analogy (/what are you smoking/) to affect somebody like you or Dean (a
street preacher who one would think would be used to much worse) is
really laughable---forgive the terminology on that one.....but it is the
way I felt when I heard you complain of being offended. Even now, I find
it incredible that you would think that I really should have thought you
were offended. And...I still don't think so. I guess it is similar to
when you refused to believe I came to TT to learn about what Protestants
believe and why. It doesn't matter how many times I explained my reasons
for being here, you simply refused to accept what I was saying. Guess I
did the same to you, Perry. Don't consider that an apology though, as
I don't think you believe my reasons for being here any more than I can
accept your easily offended nature. Perhaps we are both wrong.
*Yes, I have leaned hard on your faith.*
DAVEH: So then why would you be surprised at my sarcastic apology?
You want to play hardball with somebody who enjoys getting beat-up all
the time? I know you loathe Mormonism, and I've got no problem with you
believing as you do, as long as you respect my right to do the same.
And....you should know by now that I'm not going to be changing my
thinking simply because somebody wants to bloody my nose over my beliefs.
From my perspective, the more the anti-Mormon folks post in an effort
to denigrate my beliefs only serves to strengthen them when garbage is
posted. If you aren't following me, let me give you an example. Some
TTers want people to think LDS theology teaches that God had sex with
Mary. Not only do I not believe such, I have a reasonably fair
understanding of what LDS theology teaches. So when I hear something
like that repeated over and over even after I have explained what we do
believe, it simply points out why those making such claims are not to be
trusted to tell the truth. So....why would I believe anything else they
say?
*Until you open up to the Hioly Spirit, denounce this satanically
inspired cult, and accept the God and Jesus of the Bible, there is no
hope for you.*
DAVEH: As you recently accused me of doing........
*You just don't stop, do you? *
............Perhaps we should consider that it could just be the pot
calling the kettle black.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
In my response below I intentionally used hyperbole to point out the
fact that, while you appear to apologize on the surface, *your "apology"
is really full of further insults, negating any veiled attempt at an
apology. *
I guess there is no accounting for your bad and biased memory. You
know the archives are almost impossible to navigate for anything more
than a few weeks old, and I do not keep old messages. *More than once I
have seen you rely on that to conveniently "forget" things. *
I fully understood, and understand, the nuance of asking what someone
is smoking, but I still was offended by that. The interesting thing
here, and what this experiement in hyperbole has pointed out, is that
*even when you know someone is offended by a bad joke you made, you
cannot offer a sincere apology. You feign an apology and use it to mask
further insults. I call that "sly".*
*Yes, I have leaned hard on your faith.* As I pointed out before, I will
rebut Satan, regardless of from which camp he enters this forum. I see
the footprint of Satan all over what JS has wrought. *Until you open up
to the Hioly Spirit, denounce this satanically inspired cult, and accept
the God and Jesus of the Bible, there is no hope for you.*
-------------------------
By the way, care to tell the forum why you guys raise your arms "to the
square" and chant "Pay Lay Ale" three times? Do you know what that
means?
From http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templeofthegodmakers.htm:
"If you are still not sure if they pray to the false god or the true
God, did you know that the chant has been changed? Until just before
1930, they chanted "Pale hale hale" or "Pale ale ale." What a
coincidence! The direct Hebrew translation of "Pele Heylel" is
"Marvelous Lucifer"!(4)
There is something strange going on in Joe's house, David.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Restoration versus condemnation-David Miller
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:23:37 -0700
*Dave, you just don't quit, do you.*
DAVEH: That's right Perry.......It's one of my weaknesses. I don't
quit as long as others keep pushing.
*Now you are implying that I am not a clear thinking American. Nice
jab*
DAVEH: It does seem that way, eh! Look at what you said to John
about my smoking sarcasm.....
/ Sure, yes, of course I knew Dave was using it as a gest, John. But
not all tongue-in-cheek humor is appreciated. While you may get a
chuckle out of it, I do not particularly like being equated to a drug
user, even as a gest.
How about if I asked you, in gest of course, "Hey, John, do you still
beat your wife?". Now, that is a joke, right? Or is it? I don't know,
but I do know that you MAY not like it, and you MAY be offended by it.
Right?
It also depends on who is doing the joking. If it a close friend that
I can trust, and we have a rapport for joking in that vein, then I know
exactly what they mean. But, if it is someone that has been sly and
hostile in the past to me, why should I not consider the comment as
hostile, or a veiled jab?/
.........Now Perry......how many TTers do you think view *your *above
comment as a *clear thinking*??? May I suggest..../none/! You are
certainly an American, but I wouldn't think there would be very many
Americans who do not understand the /what have you been smoking
/nuance. And I bet there isn't a single TTer who did not understand
it, even those who might be half-witted. And IMO, those who are
offended by it aren't *clear thinking* either. BTW...Thank you for
the compliment.....I believe you deserved it.
*No we are incapable of understanding a gest? I know it is was a gest,
I just found it to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.*
DAVEH: You say that as if I haven't found any of *your *comments
about my beliefs *to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.* Why is
it different when the
shoe is on the other foot?
*
It is not that I am so sensitive, it is that you have not earned to
right to joke that way with me. *
DAVEH: Ohhhhhhhh.....that is priceless, Perry!!! :-D
*That is like me saying, "I did not call you a wife beater, I just
asked, 'Do you still beat your wife?' (in gest, of course). Nice try,
Dave. *
DAVEH: FWIW.....I haven't beat her since I started beating the dog.
*Nice try, *Perry. ;-)
*Now we are half-witted...or less than half witted? We can't even
understand as much as a half-witted kid? You are a true apologizer,
Dave! *
DAVEH: You've certainly proved my point, Perry.
*I don't think Dean was joking when he called you a pagan, and I happen
to agree with him, that those who follow the mormon faith are pagans,
not knowing the God and Jesus of the Bible, folowing occultic rituals
and worshipping a flase god. How do you define 'pagan'?*
DAVEH: Of course he wasn't joking. I did not read it as a joke, and
he didn't indicate it to be a joke. I'm sure he was just as serious as
you are now being serious. From
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/pagan........
++++++++++++++++++
Definitions: Pagan
Pagan
Adjective
1. Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam.
Noun
1. A person who does not acknowledge your God.
Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All
rights reserved.
++++++++++++++++++
.........I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, Perry.
*And, when I called you "sly" a few months back you did not
complain...until someone else said they thought it was an ad-hom. Boy,
you sure jumped on the bandwagon at that point...I apologized, and you,
taking advantage of the situation, flogged me for days over that one,
while at the same time refusing to apologize for an injustice you had
committed. *
DAVEH: You've lost me on this one, Perry. I responded to your
above claim in a parallel post tonight, and will await your proof of
guilt before offering an apology. I really do not remember giving you
a bad time about the sly comment. IF I did, I'll sincerely apologize.
After the time that you had apologized to me, I thought I said
nothing more about it.
As for the injustice I committed.....All I can remember you taking
offense at is calling you what you are....an anti-Mormon. You fit the
accepted definition, so why apologize? It wasn't meant to demean, but
merely to distinguish you from others who are not LDS, and not
anti-Mormon.
*Notice that you word it so that it is not your problem you offended
me, it is my problem...my "sensitivities" *
DAVEH: Welllllll, Perry.........Betwixt the two of us, you do seem to
be the one who is ultra sensitive. So....yeah, it is your problem.
Especially since you are a member of TT who has had little reservation
against dumping on Mormon TTers.
*After reading the above "apology", why do I get the feeling that you
are not apologiing, but turning this into an opportunity to further
demean Dean and I?*
DAVEH: What Dean recently said of me.......
*/you big cry baby/*
.........might more appropriately be applied to you, Perry.
_*You just don't stop, do you? *_
DAVEH: That's right Perry....you just might want to remember that in
the future.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
*Dave, you just don't quit, do you.* In your statements below you
appear to apologize, while continuing to abase my character...get
this...
DAVEH: I'm sorry you feel that way, Perry. I thought it to be
pretty well understood my most clear thinking Americans that asking
that (smoking) question is a joking way to point out the
ludicrousness of what they said.
*Now you are implying that I am not a clear thinking American. Nice
jab*.
It was not at all intended to imply that either you or Dean were
dopers.....just that your claims are pretty wild, as if you can't
discern reality. My apologies if I failed to convey that message so
that you (and Dean) could understand it.
*No we are incapable of understanding a gest? I know it is was a gest,
I just found it to be tasteless, offensice, and unwelcome.*
BTW.........I pretty much know that both you and Dean are stone
cold sober, but I fail to understand why you are so sensitive.
*
It is not that I am so sensitive, it is that you have not earned to
right to joke that way with me. *
I did not call either of you a doper....I just asked what you were
smoking.
*That is like me saying, "I did not call you a wife beater, I just
asked, 'Do you still beat your wife?' (in gest, of course). Nice try,
Dave. *
The proper answer had you wanted to give it would have been,
"nothing".....to clear the smoke from the air.
Now it is my problem for not giving the right answer...and "clear the
smoke from the air"...another bad joke, Dave. _*You just don't stop,
do you? *_
Instead, both of you apparently have taken offense, assuming the
opposite of what any half-witted kid would fully understand.
*Now we are half-witted...or less than half witted? We can't even
understand as much as a half-witted kid? You are a true apologizer,
Dave! *
Yet, Dean called me a pagan and you did not utter a peep as far as I
know. As you know, I've got a pretty thick skin, and have come to
expect such from some TTers, so I don't feel the need to cry foul at
the ad hom. I just find it interesting that you guys can dish it
out, but seem to get all confused and choke on that which is
returned.....even when it is a joke.
*I don't think Dean was joking when he called you a pagan, and I
happen to agree with him, that those who follow the mormon faith are
pagans, not knowing the God and Jesus of the Bible, folowing occultic
rituals and worshipping a flase god. How do you define 'pagan'?*
Now, when he equated you to flatulence, I was offended, but I let John
handle it since he has been mothering the group lately, and I think he
did a fine job. So, I did not intervene.
*And, when I called you "sly" a few months back you did not
complain...until someone else said they thought it was an ad-hom. Boy,
you sure jumped on the bandwagon at that point...I apologized, and
you, taking advantage of the situation, flogged me for days over that
one, while at the same time refusing to apologize for an injustice you
had committed. *
FTR......Again I apologize for damaging your sensitivities,
Perry.
*Notice that you word it so that it is not your problem you offended
me, it is my problem...my "sensitivities" *
*After reading the above "apology", why do I get the feeling that you
are not apologiing, but turning this into an opportunity to further
demean Dean and I?*
Perry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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If you wish to receive
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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