Dave,
Simply put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP, if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face"
described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look and
live), then the statement about him enduring it is unnecessary, because we
know that men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to present himself,
and endure, except whatever he called his "face" on Sainai. The implication
in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured viewing God, but did,
thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses did not see god's face in
Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal for moses...hardly worth
being called out. On the other hand, if he was seeing god's face in Moses
1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not appear as a man every time
he presents himself? Why a different form every time, but never directly as
a man? The use of body parts to describe his image on Sinai is not
unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was familiar with,
and the ones he obviously chose to describe the experience.
As far as "similitude", it does not mean an exact replica, or the thing
itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If god
shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning bush.
Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to write
another book, repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. Fini. We are not
destined to agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in, then...
on to my second question...how the mormon god, who is "without beginning of
days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite beginning.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.*
DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his body, but not his face.
That is why he said to Moses......
*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_:
but my face shall not be seen*. Ex 33
.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back parts? If not, then it is
clearly obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it would
seem you are contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean he didn't *also
*see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of smoke. Sure...he saw
those things too. But most important to this discussion....Moses
*literally *saw God. If you wish to ignore that simple fact Perry, that is
your privilege. I see it as denying the word of God to do so though.
Furthermore, I can't believe there would be any Bible believing Christian
TTer who would agree with you. Am I wrong?
_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_
That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
saying.......
/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God face to face_, and he talked with him, and the
glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*/
..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother you, and yet you
apparently have no problem with the Bible when it says in Num 14.......
*[14] And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have
heard that thou LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD art seen face
to face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before
them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by
night.*
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses /_saw God face to face_/,
and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been *_seen face to face_*....then
*who *do you suppose saw the Lord IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not
believe that the phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase *_seen face
to face_* literally means in either case that God's face was seen. I have
had experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have not
actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them something (such
as money) or received something from them (such as a coupon) without
glancing upward to see their actual face. But....I did see their bodies,
or parts thereof.
/*none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of
God's appearance anyway.
*/Again........that is nonsense, Perry. I previously quoted Num
12.......
*[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark
speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he behold_: wherefore then
were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? *
Why do you think the the term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How
else do you suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw *God, instead
of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of smoke? The term
*_similitude_* was expressly used to prevent naysayers from saying that
Moses did /not really/ see God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that
contrary to the Bible, those naysayers even today continue to claim Moses
did not see God.
_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man,
could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof that
the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
I never claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think that
is a contradiction boggles the mind.
*_/I don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
does./_*
The contradiction is in your mind, Perry. And, your assumption that
God cannot be seen is in error, and non Biblical. You have been shown just
a few Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There are
others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them since you have
rejected the obvious ones.)
I have been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs,
Perry....but you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is overtly
obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this matter as
found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such it must
be from Satan........do you disagree?
*How about my second question, Dave. *
What's the point of going on to the second question, Perry? When I
show you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous
theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I would
try to explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive than
talking to a brick.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave wrote:
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.* Was it a
burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fire? A column of Smoke? You
see, God appeared however he wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have
been different each time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that god
wanted him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God certainly took a
form that moses could "see". However, on Sinai there was an aspect of this
appearance upon which no man could look and live. God called this his
"face". He protected moses from gazing upon this aspect of his appearance,
so it reasonable to believe that in future meetings Moses did not see
god's "face" or he would have died as the boble states.
_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_ And, /*none of the
verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's appearance
anyway. */
Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you
think the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face") and survive,
but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY
man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof
that the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but *_/I don't "still
think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does./_* I am sorry
that your mormon faith causes you not to be able to see this.
------------------------
*How about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not
have to look it up: *
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob) who
was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as a spirit). Yet,
in the PoGP (one of your standard works consisting of revelation to JS,
right?) I find the following, which appears to say that the mormon god had
no beginning ("without beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God
Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or
end of years; and is not this endless?
Now, how is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without
beginning of days"?
Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look what happened to him
in Ex 33...
*[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto
his friend. *
...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord tells
Moses........
*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see
me, and live.
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt
stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will
put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I
pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_:
but my face shall not be seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as evidence that
actually happened, ch 34 explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took
the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the
children of Israel that which he was commanded.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of
_Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he
went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened that caused
*_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the
door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came
forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I
the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto
him in a dream.
_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in
dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_ wherefore
then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?*
.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of
the LORD_*.
So Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw
God? That Moses did not see God's face is of little consequence. Moses
probably never saw the bottom of God's feet either. But....according to
the Bible he certainly saw God.
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory
of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*_/
..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't see any
contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking
*face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you
continue to believe it is impossible to see God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can
see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions,
Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly
the Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to understand
that concept, then you will never understand why LDS folks don't see it
as a contradiction.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall
no man see me, and live.
/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and
the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/_/
Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts
the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my opinion, of course! And that
is that if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived,
we must have a different god, for no one can see the face of the God
of the Bible and live!
I have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the
Pearl of Greast Price (one of the mormon standard works consisting of
revelation to JS from god, right?), and already have found two glaring
contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
Perry
----------
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