Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!

[Dave Hansen]

Of course in your view it MUST be His person to fit LDS doctrine If it was his Physical Form that passed by Pray Tell, what exactly did Moses see when he saw God's Back Parts? DAVEH:   Yes Kevin, I must view it from my LDS perspective.  What I don't understand is why you don't also view it in a similar way, since the Bible says....... [23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. .........What am I missing here, Kevin?  It seems like a very plain and straight forward passage that explains that God wanted Moses to see the back parts of his body.  Do you disagree???  Either Moses saw God's back parts, or he didn't.  The Bible says that he would see them.  I believe he did.  Are you really saying he didn't???    Rather than play word games, Kevin....just answer it plainly and simply.  YES Moses did see God's back parts........or.......NO, Moses did not see God's back parts.  Which do you believe, Kevin??? Kevin Deegan wrote: It is just as written: EX 3313 show me now thy way EX 33:19 I will make all my goodness pass before thee EX 33:18 show me thy glory EX 33:22 while my glory passeth by Moses asked to see His Glory not His person And God said I will show you my GOODNESS not His person   Of course in your view it MUST be His person to fit LDS doctrine If it was his Physical Form that passed by Pray Tell, what exactly did Moses see when he saw God's Back Parts?   In addition Moses asked "show me now thy way" Ex 33:13 What part of His body is associated with His way? What Bo dy part is His Goodness? What part is His Glory?   AND WHY did God say "I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee" ? Why did God, not say I will declare MY name before thee??????   Moses said EX 33 show me thy glory.... God said:  I will make all my goodness pass before thee & my glory passeth by Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. PS 97:6 The heavens decl are his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. PS 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH:   Do you deny that Moses saw God, Kevin? Kevin Deegan wrote: Moses said EX 33 show me thy glory....And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that h e had made, and, behold, it was very good. PS 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. PS 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.   Moses was an eyewitness of God's glory Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dave, Simply put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP, if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face" described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look and live), then the statement about him enduring it is unnecessary , because we know that men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to present himself, and endure, except whatever he called his "face" on Sainai. The implication in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured viewing God, but did, thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses did not see god's face in Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal for moses...hardly worth being called out. On the other hand, if he was seeing god's face in Moses 1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting scripture. Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not appear as a man every time he presents himself? Why a different form every time, but never directly as a man? The use of body parts to describe his image on Sinai is not unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was familiar with, and the ones he obviously chose to describe the experience. As far as "similitude", it does not mean an exact replica , or the thing itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If god shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning bush. Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to write another book, repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah? I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. Fini. We are not destined to agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in, then... on to my second question...how the mormon god, who is "without beginning of days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite beginning. Perry >From: Dave Hansen >Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP! >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800 > >*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.* > >DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his body, but not his face. > That is why he said to Moses...... > >*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_: >but my face shall not be seen*. Ex 33 > >.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back parts? If not, then it is >clearly obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it would >seem you are contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean he didn't *also >*see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of smoke. Sure...he saw >those things too. But most important to this discussion....Moses >*literally *saw God. If you wish to i gnore that simple fact Perry, that is >your privilege. I see it as denying the word of God to do so though. >Furthermore, I can't believe there would be any Bible believing Christian >TTer who would agree with you. Am I wrong? > _*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived >(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_ > > That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as >saying....... > >/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God face to face_, and he talked with him, and the >glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*/ > >..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother you, and yet you >apparently have no problem with the Bible when it says in Num 14....... > >*[14] And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have >heard that thou LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD art seen face >to face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before >them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by >night.* > >..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses /_saw God face to face_/, >and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been *_seen face to face_*....then >*who *do you suppose saw the Lord IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not >believe that the phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase *_seen face >to face_* literally means in either case that God's face was seen. I have >had experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have not >actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them something (such >as money) or received something from them (such as a coupon) without >glancing upward to see their actual face. But....I did see their bodies, >or parts thereof. > >/*none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of >God's appearance anyway. > > */Again........that is nonsense, Perry. I previously q uoted Num >12....... > >*[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark >speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he behold_: wherefore then >were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? * > > Why do you think the the term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How >else do you suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw *God, instead >of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of smoke? The term >*_similitude_* was expressly used to prevent naysayers from saying that >Moses did /not really/ see God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that >contrary to the Bible, those naysayers even today continue to claim Moses >did not see God. > >_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man, >could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof that >the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_ >< BR>> I never claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think that >is a contradiction boggles the mind. > >*_/I don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it >does./_* > > The contradiction is in your mind, Perry. And, your assumption that >God cannot be seen is in error, and non Biblical. You have been shown just >a few Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There are >others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them since you have >rejected the obvious ones.) > > I have been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs, >Perry....but you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is overtly >obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this matter as >found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible >explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such it must >be from Satan........do you disagree? > >*How about my second question, Dave. * > > What's the point of going on to the second question, Perry? When I >show you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous >theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I would >try to explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive than >talking to a brick. > >Charles Perry Locke wrote: > >>>Dave wrote: >>> After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still >>>think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible? >> >> >>*I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.* Was it a >>burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fir e? A column of Smoke? You >>see, God appeared however he wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have >>been different eac h time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that god >>wanted him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God certainly took a >>form that moses could "see". However, on Sinai there was an aspect of this >>appearance upon which no man could look and live. God called this his >>"face". He protected moses from gazing upon this aspect of his appearance, >>so it reasonable to believe that in future meetings Moses did not see >>god's "face" or he would have died as the boble states. >> >>_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived >>(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_ And, /*none of the >>verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's appearance >>anyway. */ >> >>Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you >>think the mormon god is a man, he must have a litera l "face") and survive, >>but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY >>man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof >>that the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_ >> >>Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but *_/I don't "still >>think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does./_* I am sorry >>that your mormon faith causes you not to be able to see this. >> >>------------------------ >> >>*How about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not >>have to look it up: * >> >>It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob) who >>was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as a spirit). Yet, >>in the PoGP (one of your standard works consisting of revelation to JS, >>right?) I find the following, whi ch appears to say that the mormon god had >>no beginning ("without beginning of days"): >> >>MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God >>Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or >>end of years; and is not this endless? >> >>Now, how is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without >>beginning of days"? >> >>Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to me. >> >>Perry >> >> >> >> >>>From: Dave Hansen >>>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >>>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP! >>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800 >>> >>>DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look what happened to him >>>in Ex 33... >>> >>>*[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto >>>his friend. * >>> >>>...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord tells >>>Moses........ >>> >>>*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see >>>me, and live. >>>[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt >>>stand upon a rock: >>>[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will >>>put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I >>>pass by: >>>[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_: >>>but my face shall not be seen.* >>> >>>...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as evidence that >>>actually happened, ch 34 explains........ >>> >>>*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took >>>the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the >>>children of Israel that which he was commanded. >>>[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of >>>_Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he >>>went in to speak with him. >>> >>>*...............That something miraculous had happened that caused >>>*_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses saw........ >>> >>>*[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the >>>do or of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came >>>forth. >>>[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I >>>the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto >>>him in a dream. >>>_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. >>>[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in >>>dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_ wherefore >>>then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?* >>> >>>.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser >>>faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of >>>the LORD_*. >>> >>> So Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw >>>God? That Moses did not s ee God's face is of little consequence. Moses >>>probably never saw the bottom of God's feet either. But....according to >>>the Bible he certainly saw God. >>> >>> After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still >>>think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2......... >>> >>>/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory >>>of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*_/ >>> >>>..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't see any >>>contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking >>>*face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you >>>continue to believe it is impossible to see God? >>> >>> >>> >>>Charles Perry Locke wrote: >>> >>>>Dave, >>>> >>>> You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can >>>>see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too. >>>> >>>>Perry >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these >>>>>contradictions?* >>>>> >>>>>DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions, >>>>>Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly >>>>>the Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to understand >>>>>that concept, then you will never understand why LDS folks don't see it >>>>>as a contradiction. >>>>> >>>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Dave, >>>>>> >>>>>>Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP! >>>>>> >>>>>>Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall >>>>>>no man see me, and live. >>>>>> >>>>>>/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and >>>>>>the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his >>>>>>presence.*/_/ >>>>>> >>>>>>Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts >>>>>>the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my opinion, of course! And that >>>>>>is t hat if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived, >>>>>>we must have a different god, for no one can see the face of the God >>>>>>of the Bible and live! >>>>>> >>>>>>I have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the >>>>>>Pearl of Greast Price (one of the mormon standard works consisting of >>>>>>revelation to JS from god, right?), and already have found two glaring >>>>>>contradictions!!! Why should I read further? >>>>>> >>>>>>*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these >>>>>>contradictions?* >>>>>> >>>>>>Perry >>>>>> >>>> > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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