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Was Moses Mooned DaveH? Now I've heard
everything..........judyt
Of course in your view it MUST be His person to fit LDS
doctrine
If it was his Physical Form that passed by Pray Tell, what exactly
did Moses see when he saw God's
Back Parts?
DAVEH: Yes Kevin, I must
view it from my LDS perspective. What I don't understand is why you
don't also view it in a similar way, since the Bible
says.......
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see
my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
.........What am I
missing here, Kevin? It seems like a very plain and straight forward
passage that explains that God wanted Moses to see the back parts of his
body. Do you disagree??? Either Moses saw God's back parts, or he
didn't. The Bible says that he would see them. I believe he
did. Are you really saying he didn't??? Rather than
play word games, Kevin....just answer it plainly and simply. YES
Moses did see God's back parts........or.......NO, Moses did not
see God's back parts. Which do you believe, Kevin???
Kevin
Deegan wrote:
It is just as written:
EX 3313 show me now thy
way
EX 33:19 I will make all my goodness
pass before thee
EX 33:18 show me thy
glory
EX 33:22 while my glory passeth
by
Moses asked to see His Glory not His person
And God said I will show you my GOODNESS not His person
Of course in your view it MUST be His person to fit LDS
doctrine
If it was his Physical Form that passed by Pray Tell, what
exactly did Moses see when he saw God's Back Parts?
In addition Moses asked "show me now thy
way" Ex 33:13
What part of His body is associated with His way?
What Bo dy part is His Goodness? What part is His Glory?
AND WHY did God say "I will proclaim the
name of the LORD before thee" ?
Why did God, not say I will declare
MY name before thee??????
Moses said EX 33 show me thy
glory....
God
said: I will make all my goodness pass before
thee & my glory passeth
by
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and
the earth.
Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that he had
made, and, behold, it was very good.
PS 97:6 The heavens decl are his
righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
PS 19:1 The
heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament
sheweth his handywork. Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
DAVEH:
Do you deny that Moses saw God, Kevin?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Moses said EX 33 show me thy
glory....And he said, I will make all my goodness pass
before thee
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven
and the earth.
Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that h e had
made, and, behold, it was very good.
PS 97:6 The heavens declare his
righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
PS 19:1 The
heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his
handywork.
Moses was an eyewitness of God's
glory Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Dave,
Simply
put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP, if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face"
described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man
could look and
live), then the statement about him enduring it is
unnecessary , because we
know that men can gaze upon whatever form
god chooses to present himself,
and endure, except whatever he
called his "face" on Sainai. The implication
in Moses 1:2 is that
Moses should not have endured viewing God, but did,
thus, that he
was seeing god's "face". If moses did not see god's face in
Moses
1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal for moses...hardly worth
being called out. On the other hand, if he was seeing god's face
in Moses
1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting
scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not
appear as a man every time
he presents himself? Why a different
form every time, but never directly as
a man? The use of body
parts to describe his image on Sinai is not
unreasonable since
these are certainly the terms Moses was familiar with,
and the
ones he obviously chose to describe the experience.
As far as
"similitude", it does not mean an exact replica , or the thing
itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is
present. If god
shows himself as a burning bush, then his
similitude is as a burning bush.
Besides, if the Torah is
attributed to Moses, why would he have to write
another book,
repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with
this topic. I have stated my position. Fini. We are not
destined
to agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in,
then...
on to my second question...how the mormon god, who is
"without beginning of
days" is also a created being, thus, with a
finite beginning.
Perry
>From: Dave Hansen
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To:
[email protected]
>Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP!
>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
>
>*I
do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to
see.*
>
>DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his
body, but not his face.
> That is why he said to
Moses......
>
>*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and
_thou shalt see my back parts_:
>but my face shall not be
seen*. Ex 33
>
>.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's
back parts? If not, then it is
>clearly obvious that Moses saw
God. (And if you do deny it, then it would
>seem you are
contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean he didn't *also
>*see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of smoke.
Sure...he saw
>those things too. But most important to this
discussion....Moses
>*literally *saw God. If you wish to i
gnore that simple fact Perry, that is
>your privilege. I see it
as denying the word of God to do so though.
>Furthermore, I
can't believe there would be any Bible believing Christian
>TTer who would agree with you. Am I wrong?
> _*The
implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
>(endured) it. The Bible says that is not
possible.*_
>
> That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted
LDS Scripture as
>saying.......
>
>/*MOS 1:2 And
_he saw God face to face_, and he talked with him, and the
>glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/
>
>..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2)
would bother you, and yet you
>apparently have no problem with
the Bible when it says in Num 14.......
>
>*[14] And they
will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have
>heard that thou LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD
art seen face
>to face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them,
and that thou goest before
>them, by day time in a pillar of a
cloud, and in a pillar of fire by
>night.*
>
>..........If LDS Scripture tells us
that Moses /_saw God face to face_/,
>and the Bible tells us
that the Lord has been *_seen face to face_*....then
>*who *do
you suppose saw the Lord IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not
>believe that the phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase
*_seen face
>to face_* literally means in either case that
God's face was seen. I have
>had experiences where I've stood
face to face with people, and have not
>actually looked at
their faces, but rather have handed them something (such
>as
money) or received something from them (such as a coupon) without
>glancing upward to see their actual face. But....I did see
their bodies,
>or parts thereof.
>
>/*none of the
verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of
>God's appearance anyway.
>
> */Again........that
is nonsense, Perry. I previously q uoted Num
>12.......
>
>*[8] With him will I speak mouth to
mouth, even apparently, and not in dark
>speeches; and _the
similitude of the LORD shall he behold_: wherefore then
>were
ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? *
>
> Why
do you think the the term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How
>else do you suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw
*God, instead
>of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column
of smoke? The term
>*_similitude_* was expressly used to
prevent naysayers from saying that
>Moses did /not really/ see
God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that
>contrary to the
Bible, those naysayers even today continue to claim Moses
>did
not see God.
>
>_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the
biblical Moses, nor ANY man,
>could look at the biblical God's
"face" and survive. yet more proof that
>the mormon god is not
the biblical God. /_
>< BR>> I never claimed that Moses
saw God's face. So why you would think that
>is a contradiction
boggles the mind.
>
>*_/I don't "still think" it
contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
>does./_*
>
> The contradiction is in your mind,
Perry. And, your assumption that
>God cannot be seen is in
error, and non Biblical. You have been shown just
>a few
Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There are
>others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them
since you have
>rejected the obvious ones.)
>
> I
have been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs,
>Perry....but you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It
is overtly
>obvious that you have no desire to understand the
truth of this matter as
>found in the Bible. Simply put,
compared to what the Bible
>explains........you are teaching
the doctrine of man, and as such it must
>be from
Satan........do you disagree?
>
>*How about my second
question, Dave. *
>
> What's the point of going on to the
second question, Perry? When I
>show you specific Bible
passages that clearly refute your erroneous
>theories, and you
just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I would
>try to
explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive than
>talking to a brick.
>
>Charles Perry Locke
wrote:
>
>>>Dave wrote:
>>> After
reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
>>>think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2
contradicts the Bible?
>>
>>
>>*I do know
that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.* Was it a
>>burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fir e? A column
of Smoke? You
>>see, God appeared however he wished to
appear to Moses. It appears to have
>>been different eac h
time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that god
>>wanted him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God
certainly took a
>>form that moses could "see". However, on
Sinai there was an aspect of this
>>appearance upon which no
man could look and live. God called this his
>>"face". He
protected moses from gazing upon this aspect of his appearance,
>>so it reasonable to believe that in future meetings Moses
did not see
>>god's "face" or he would have died as the
boble states.
>>
>>_*The implication in Moses 1:2
that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
>>(endured) it. The
Bible says that is not possible.*_ And, /*none of the
>>verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of
God's appearance
>>anyway. */
>>
>>Maybe
the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you
>>think the mormon god is a man, he must have a litera l
"face") and survive,
>>but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E,
neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY
>>man, could look at the
biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof
>>that the
mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
>>
>>Thanks
for the effort you put into this, Dave, but *_/I don't "still
>>think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
does./_* I am sorry
>>that your mormon faith causes you not
to be able to see
this.
>>
>>------------------------
>>
>>*How
about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not
>>have to look it up: *
>>
>>It is a
mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob) who
>>was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as
a spirit). Yet,
>>in the PoGP (one of your standard works
consisting of revelation to JS,
>>right?) I find the
following, whi ch appears to say that the mormon god had
>>no beginning ("without beginning of
days"):
>>
>>MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses,
saying: Behold, I am the Lord God
>>Almighty, and Endless is
my name; for I am without beginning of days or
>>end of
years; and is not this endless?
>>
>>Now, how is it
that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without
>>beginning of days"?
>>
>>Thank you in
advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to
me.
>>
>>Perry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From:
Dave Hansen
>>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>To:
[email protected]
>>>Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP!
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18
-0800
>>>
>>>DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses
below, let's look what happened to him
>>>in Ex
33...
>>>
>>>*[11] And the LORD spake unto
Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto
>>>his friend.
*
>>>
>>>...............At the end of the same
chapter, the Lord tells
>>>Moses........
>>>
>>>*[20] And
he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see
>>>me, and live.
>>>[21] And the LORD said,
Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt
>>>stand
upon a rock:
>>>[22] And it shall come to pass, while my
glory passeth by, that I will
>>>put thee in a clift of
the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I
>>>pass by:
>>>[23] And I will take away mine
hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_:
>>>but my face
shall not be seen.*
>>>
>>>...........*_thou
shalt see my back parts_*, and as evidence that
>>>actually happened, ch 34
explains........
>>>
>>>*[34] But when Moses
went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took
>>>the
vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the
>>>children of Israel that which he was
commanded.
>>>[35] And the children of Israel saw the face
of Moses, that the skin of
>>>_Moses' face shone:_ and
Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he
>>>went
in to speak with
him.
>>>
>>>*...............That something
miraculous had happened that caused
>>>*_Moses' face_* to
shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses
saw........
>>>
>>>*[5] And the LORD came down
in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the
>>>do or of
the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came
>>>forth.
>>>[6] And he said, Hear now my
words: If there be a prophet among you, I
>>>the LORD
will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto
>>>him in a dream.
>>>_[7] My servant Moses
is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
>>>[8] With
him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in
>>>dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he
behold:_ wherefore
>>>then were ye not afraid to speak
against my servant
Moses?*
>>>
>>>.........Notice that he
distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
>>>faith.
And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of
>>>the LORD_*.
>>>
>>> So Perry,
would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw
>>>God? That Moses did not s ee God's face is of little
consequence. Moses
>>>probably never saw the bottom of
God's feet either. But....according to
>>>the Bible he
certainly saw God.
>>>
>>> After reading more
of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
>>>think that the account you cited in Moses
1:2.........
>>>
>>>/_*And he saw God face to
face, and he talked with him, and the glory
>>>of God was
upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*_/
>>>
>>>..........contradicts the
Bible? I certainly don't see any
>>>contradiction,
especially since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking
>>>*face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that,
Perry........or do you
>>>continue to believe it is
impossible to see
God?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Charles
Perry Locke
wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dave,
>>>>
>>>>
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can
>>>>see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can
be clear on this,
too.
>>>>
>>>>Perry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From:
Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>*Why
is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
>>>>>contradictions?*
>>>>>
>>>>>DAVEH:
Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions,
>>>>>Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding
to be in error. Clearly
>>>>>the Bible does show
that man can see God. If you fail to understand
>>>>>that concept, then you will never understand
why LDS folks don't see it
>>>>>as a
contradiction.
>>>>>
>>>>>Charles
Perry Locke
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Dave,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Moses
cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the
PoGP!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Exodus
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall
>>>>>>no man see me, and
live.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>/_/*MOS
1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and
>>>>>>the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore
Moses could endure his
>>>>>>presence.*/_/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dave,
how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts
>>>>>>the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my
opinion, of course! And that
>>>>>>is t hat if
the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived,
>>>>>>we must have a different god, for no one
can see the face of the God
>>>>>>of the Bible
and live!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I
have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the
>>>>>>Pearl of Greast Price (one of the mormon
standard works consisting of
>>>>>>revelation to
JS from god, right?), and already have found two glaring
>>>>>>contradictions!!! Why should I read
further?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*Why
is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
>>>>>>contradictions?*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Perry
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
----------
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