Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

[Taylor]

True enough, are you suggesting that this is an example of one of those "historic presents"? (Before answering, you may want to do some more research as to when they were used) Blue letter Bible Lexicon The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi David   The writer to the Hebrews uses the passive participle on numerous occasions (see, e.g., my post to Kevin). Sometimes the King James translators elected to convey that passive voice; other times they did not. If on every occasion that the passive were used the translators had rendered the verb as you suggest below, you may have a point: that "are sanctified" can connote a present passive; however, they did not do this. Hence their translation is a mistake, at the very least, because it is misleading: witness Kevin and Judy's response.   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor Judy, you are reading an English translation of a Greek text.  The assumption Bill makes is that the Greek text reads closer to the intended meaning of the passage and should be preferred to the English rendering.  I don't have a problem with this assumption that he makes.  Do you?   In the Heb. 10:14 passage that Bill brings up, the word for sanctified is a derivation of hagiazo (holy / sanctified) combined with a definite article.  Bringing it over directly into English is a little problematic.  In Greek, it transliterates as "tous hagiazomenous" which is a present passive/middle participle.  Literally, it might come over as "the ones being sanctified" or "those who are sanctified."  There are not any other Greek texts conjugating this word this way that I am aware of, so I don't think any of us can be too dogmatic about the right way to translate here.  Some of this comes down to how much you trust the Greek scholars.   In the 1 Cor. 7:14 passage that you bring up, while the wording looks similar in English, it is different in Greek.  There is no definite article, and the word is parsed as "hegiasiai."  This word here is conjugated as being perfect indicative passive.  This means the Greek puts more emphasis here on the completeness and finality of the action (being sanctified).   So while in the English you see "is sanctified" and "are sanctified" as being similar, the Greek actually shows a little more difference than this ("hegiasiai" in 1 Cor. 7:14 versus "tous hagiazomenous" in Heb. 10:14) .   Of course, you can also use a little common sense.  Are we not all in a state of being sanctified?  I know you believe that we are.  You have said so yourself many times.    Now all this being said, I also disagree that this passage would illustrate an error in the KJV.  One might rightly argue that "are sanctified" in English is present passive, but one might argue that a connotation of present repeating action is lost, and so they might favor "are being sanctified" as a better translation.  The truth is that neither translation fits exactly.  Nevertheless, when we read the text, it seems to me that we really all agree on what is true, that we are all sanctified, and we are all in the process of being sanctified, at the same time.   Peace be with you. David Miller.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor Hmmm - Just as I thought, the Holy Spirit has been fired and men have taken over; men who exalt Greek present passive verbs.. Are we in the last days with apostasy and falling away or what??  judyt   Is there someone here who speaks Judy's language that could maybe explain to her the meaning of a present passive verb? If she respects you, she may listen. The same goes for Kevin; he needs your help, too.  Thanks,  Bill   On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 05:52:26 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: So this is an example of how the KJV is in error Bill? IMO the error is with your understanding rather than with the text of the KJV translation.  You have read something into the text that is not there and have made a straw man to knock down.  The word sanctification does not necessarily mean an action being performed;  the same word is used in 1 Cor 7:14 for an unbelieving wife who is sanctified (set apart, consecrated) by the faith of her husband.  In this sense "sanctified" means something entirely different from what you describe. So IOW "By one offering Jesus has perfected for ever them that are set apart, consecrated (or sanctified)."                                             judyt                                        He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments                               is a liar (1 John 2:4) Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.