DAVEH: Yep.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Yes, I missed that point. Did you get mine?
DAVEH: I think you missed the point, Perry. Terry said he wouldn't
speculate, in the same sentence in which he speculated. I found that
rather curious.....don't you?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, are you nwext going to tell us that monkeys and hoses are your
spirit brothers, too? For that matter, what biblical evidence
supports ANY of your LDS theories?
*monkeys and horses do not have a soul.*
DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim,
Terry? What Biblical evidence supports that theory?
Terry Clifton wrote:
I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that *monkeys and
horses do not have a soul.*
==================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
*He knew they would sin. **He did not plan for them to fall. He
planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.*
DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I
will admit to being biased by my belief that *He did plan for
them to fall*.
/*As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All we
can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error.*/
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is
safe to speculate that some (if not most) of A&E's descendants
would have transgressed. Look at A&E....it didn't take them too
long to transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the
other villains of history would have remained angels? I submit
to you that there would proportionally be very few who would not
have transgressed. Consider another example. Adults have
preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid smoking, alcohol, sex and
drugs. Just denying them such, entices many it seems.
So....would you reasonably expect any but a few of A&E's
descendants to withstand the temptations that Eve failed to avoid?
Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys,
horses or whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating
the forbidden fruit have had IFF A&E hadn't?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you
have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be
hard to accept.
God is omnicient, *He knew they would sin.* *He did not plan
for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big
difference.*
/*As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we
can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error.*/
=================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
*He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?*
*if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of*
*humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has
been the human lot since then.*
DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus
in one facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen.
One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a
neighborhood kid made to me in which he said A&E screwed it up
for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had
they not transgressed, we would all live forever without
experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than
religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as
being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again.
I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but
let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not
transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have
transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to
do something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think
that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of
A&E's children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of
the billions who descended from A&E, none would ever have
transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in
the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspective....not
only was it expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently
you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was
foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was
created.....that it was planned? (Please let me know if you do
not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God
wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective
perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I said....perhaps
I'm missing something about the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to transgress and *if they had not
they would have saved themselves and the rest of*
*humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has
been the human lot since then.* Why would the Lord
want that for them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat
liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no
matter how many times I am given that option. God will give
you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be
one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best
for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring
pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers,
selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe *He
wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?*
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective, Terry.........I
assume you believe that God did not want A&E to sin though,
even though he knew they would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God hates sin. Fact three: Getting people to sin
is the top priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
*No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussed*
*
*DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking
Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off.
That rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including
Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God wanted
A&E not to transgress. IFF that was actually his
intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to
pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate
that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord
intended to be. To me, that seems very strange. Does it
strike you as rather curious, John?
*
were A & E predestined to sin?*
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what
you folks believe about predestination and foreordination.
Since you apparently do not believe we existed in a
pre-mortal state, it would seem to me that you would not
believe in either. But....I don't want to assume such
without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*No. Actually, I have never heard this question
discussed*. You asked me to comment on a question --
perhaps a week ago, now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "*were A &
E predestined to sin?* jd DAVEH: May I suggest another
topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if any of you
folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and
Eve had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come
up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT?
We have pretty much said all that can be said about any
number of subjects. jd
----------
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