-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:08:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:42:37 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regenerated individual. How do we know this? This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God ( Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law.How do you know he had never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ? He just didn't have the Law the way that the Jews did. The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between the have's and the have not's. The Gentiles are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews are those who are in. Paul begins with this scenario. Now I know that this is no longer true - but Paul is using this very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is no longer important. T he Gentile - typically speaking - is not God's chosen while the Jew is -- typically speaking . Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the Jewish Christian in Rome.......... hearing is not the most important issue ---- doing is. The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in 2:13-14. Hence, the Gentile has not heard the law.As far as unregenerated man not being able to do good -- why did Jonah go to Nineveh?He would have to be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written in God's Law. Love is thefulfillment of the law and the unregenerated gentile would be unable to do this. Paul was speaking to the Church at Rome wasn't he? Not in Romans 2. He was addressing the Judaizing legalists of the Roman church in chapters 2, 3, 4.And , as often as not, he fails in this doing , by the way. If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature." Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit. But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go.My so called theology is not judging any Jew one way or the other. I am not talking about judging the Jew, Judy. I am talking about your theology. First, you imply that "by nature" means the new nature, but then,in this passage only the Gentile has this "nature" thing going for him which means that the Jew does not. Paul is making a contrast between what is done "by nature" and what is not. You simply cannot sneak the Holy Spirit into any of this without serious contextual problems -- one of which I have mentioned. "By nature" simply cannot mean to include the "new nature."I assume a believing Jew would do the samething but having access to God's law helps me so I figure it would also help them. Why would the Judaizers be comingto the Church at Rome on Sunday - they would be going to the Synagogue wouldn't they?And your out of context I Co 2:14 is really getting old. So unregenerated man cannot receive the things of God unless he is given the Holy Spirit of God -- right?RIGHT!! This is what Paul is teaching here and it would make things a whole lot easier for you if you accepted the fact.There are those who have the Spirit and are thereby regenerated and those who do not and are unregenerated. And the unregenerated cannot receive the things of God - nothing from God for all that God lays on us is spiritual -- right????RIGHT.1. God is a Spirit (John 4:24)2. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Cor 3:17)3. Mankind are spirit beings (Zech 12:1)4. The Law is spiritual (Rom 7:14)And this would include the Corinthians -- right?? I mean , the text says ".....and even now, you are still not able" (I Co 3:2). So, why is he writing to them if they are not able to understand what he is saying? And how did they come to a knowledge of the truth in the first place ????? And on what occasion do you KNOW that you are right and cannot be wrong, Judy y? How many times have you read the text, layed it down and said to yourself," I have no need to read this again for I know that I know ," Could you give me an example of a few specific scriptures that you understand to the point of never having to review those scriptures for "truth's" sake? Maybe just four or five scriptures.No JD, I couldn't give you anything because you and your theologians already KNOW IT ALL.And how many of these questions will you now ignore?If I had been sensible enough to read through the whole thing first I wouldn't have answered any of thembecause you are not sincerely wanting to know anything from me - you are just bloviating here and your mindis already made up.Its called "gatcha." Bless your heart, Judy. You are honest enough to allow the post to include your reponse just as it happened !!! Hats off. Most would have changed their first reponses. And you are wrong about my honesty. I would accept your point of view if I could answer my own queestions offered to you. But I cannot answer those questions using your theology either.You are cultish in your doctrine and blind to any possibility of change. That is NOT the leadership of the Spirit.If I were you JD, I'd go back to Barth. He is the one with all the answers, along with TFT, Polyani, etc... Why go back when I am doing so good with the biblical text ??!!I will await your answers. Still waiting.jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:24:07 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and SpiritWhatever JD; You asked the question, I just answered it.Maybe it's best for you to stick with Barth and leave Romans to those who understand Paul the apostle whois inspired by the Spirit of God. As I've said before scripture is 'spiritually discerned' 1 Cor 2:14. So my reason, your reason, and/or Barth's reasonings have nothing to do with anything, not anything important that is.
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
