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----- Original Message -----
Sent: 12/16/2005 6:17:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] sweat
Hmm, good points, Kevin, but I doubt there is really a discrepancy or contradiction, otherwise how are you going to explain the agony of Gethsemene? What he suffered on the cross was more physical, which lead to his death--but there obviously was the agony of Gethsemene, wherein he suffered for the sins of mankind, to such an extent as to come just short of dying. I am not sure why dying had to take place on the cross, eventually, unless it has something to do with overcoming death--which had to be done in order to overcome the effects of Adam's transgression and fall, wherein death was brought into the world. That would make sense to me--but let's face it, the entire matter of his being able to reconcile man with God after the fall of Adam which brought sin and death into the world was a great miracle. I am not sure any man fully comprehends it. We see in part through the glass darkly now, but someday we will see more clearly, hopefully.&nbs
p;
cd: The simple fact that Jesus walked out of the garden and failed to walk away from the cross (yes, I Know He rose 3 days later) but he had to be carried from the cross should prove the cross was life threaten not the garden-In the Garden he was praying hard for the believers and the world-so hard that blood fell as drops of sweat would fall.John chapter 17 is the prayer he prayed in the Garden -you should read it-good stuff. There have been other Believers-through out history- who have also prayed in this manner hard and had blood also come out of their pours as sweat would.
In a message dated 12/16/2005 1:29:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Forgiveness is available because of the atoning sacrifice of the Great Jehovah. Forgiveness is available because Christ the Lord sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane as he bore the incalculable weight of the sins of all who ever had or ever would repent. Forgiveness is available because "God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance." (Alma 7:13.) (The Messiah Series, Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Company, 1978-82)
Encyclopedia of Mormonism
... For Latter-day Saints, Gethsemane was the scene of Jesus' greatest agony, even surpassing that which he suffered on the cross, an understanding supported by Mark's description of Jesus' experience (Mark 14:33-39).
... The evidence for Jesus' extreme agony in Gethsemane is buttressed by a prophecy in the Book of Mormon and a statement by the resurrected Savior recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. About 125 B.C., a Book of Mormon king, Benjamin, recounted in an important address a prophecy of the coming messiah spoken to him by an angel during the previous night. Concerning the Messiah's mortal experience, the angel declared that "he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people" (Mosiah 3:7). The Doctrine and Covenants gives the following poignant words of the resurrected Jesus: "Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; Â…which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to b
leed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit" (D&C 19:16, 18).
Modern LDS leaders have emphasized that Jesus' most challenging experience came in Gethsemane. Speaking in a general conference of the Church in 1982, Marion G. Romney, a member of the First Presidency, observed that Jesus suffered "the pains of all men, which he did, principally, in Gethsemane, the scene of his great agony" (Ensign 12 [May 1982]:6). Church President Ezra Taft Benson wrote that "it was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" (Benson, p. 7). (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992, p. 542)
This is in direct contradiction to the bible which says
Romans 5:10 when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.
Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col. 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Blainerb: Kevin, you quoted the passage in the D&C where the doctrine of the garden is taught. Now you are asking where it was taught? It all began in the garden. He suffered there , "even unto death." Did you miss that part or something?
In a message dated 12/15/2005 5:45:54 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The Holy Bible is the authority.
The bible does not teach any such thing
As a Matter of fact where does the BoM or D&C teach such?????
In a message dated 12/15/2005 8:47:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jesus Christ did not ATONE for our sins by suffering in the Garden
Thanks Kevin, we were waiting for the final word from your Royal Highness . . . Now we know the truth because you said it--What greater authority can we have, than Kevin of TT?
Blainerb
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