God is the One who has given me my point of view on faith, David -- therefore it cannot be wrong . He has given me a very detailed response to your post, here, but it will take some time to put it into script. Perhaps this afternoon when I get back from the shop.
The Bishop
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John wrote:
> > ... there is nothing that you believe as a
> > mater of faith that cannot be wrong.
>
> I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of
> faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because
> of our past discussions about faith. You and I perceive faith very
> differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the
> unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam. I'm
> just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one
> adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical
> understanding of faith as something very spiritual.
>
> Some passages for your consideration:
>
> 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire,
> when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."
>
> Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe"
> carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental
> acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they
> prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude
> that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word
> "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word.
>
> 2. Mark 16:16-20
> (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
> not shall be damned.
> (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
> cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
> shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
> recover.
> (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
> heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
> (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
> them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
>
> How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of
> these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept
> of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of
> it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
> passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take
> the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith
> is.
>
> 3. John 14:12
> (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that
> I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I
> go unto my Father.
>
> This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the
> part of the one who has it. If this is true, then many of those who say
> they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that
> Jesus did, and greater works too.
>
> 4. Hebrews 11:1
> (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things
> not seen.
>
> This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance
> and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure
> foundation to which it is attached.
>
> 5. Romans 10:14
> (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how
> shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they
> hear without a preacher?
>
> This passage indicates that faith is based upon knowledge. People cannot
> just imagine what they w ant to believe. They must hear the truth first,
> then faith can come. Therefore, faith is based upon truth. If truth can
> never be wrong, and faith can only be held in that which is true, then when
> someone apprehends something by faith, it can never be wrong.
>
> The key here is distinguishing between that which we apprehend by faith and
> that which we simply acknowledge with our mind because of our opinions and
> ideas. Having some kind of speculation or idea is not faith, no matter how
> much we try to believe it.
>
> The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie,
> with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he
> cannot do it. No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some
> reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with
> conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it,
> we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong. For
> example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute
> conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint
> is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong.
>
> The teaching that any idea held by faith has the possibility of being wrong
> is dangerous. It is a natural idea and contrary to anyone who walks by the
> Spirit. The truth is that ideas that come from our objective experiences,
> for example, scientific knowledge, is the kind of knowledge that is
> tentative and provisional. Those who apply themselves to natural methods of
> learning come to realize that all their conclusions are tentative.
> Therefore, the have the tendency to categorize all forms of knowledge in the
> same way. They declare that matters of theology and faith also are
> tentative, but this is only an unproven assumption on their part. They are
> only projecting thei r own system of learning upon others, including those
> who are spiritual.
>
> The only kind of knowledge that is not tentative is that which comes through
> faith. This is an unpopular concept these days, I know, but this my
> understanding of the Scriptures for what it is worth.
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> If you have not spoken in a language that you
> >> did not learn and did not understand, then you
> >> have not had that experience of being baptized
> >> in the Holy Spirit.
>
> John wrote:
> > This is not a thought that is in line with biblical
> > teaching, my friend. Baptism of the Spirit occurs
> > for me on every occasion, and I mean every occasion
> > that I share songs and hymns in a corporate setting.
> > Eph 5:18-19 is a reference you might consider.
>
> Eph. 5:18-19 is not talking about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This
> passag e speaks of a filling that all born again believers may experience.
>
> To understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit, consider passages like those
> found in Acts chapters 2, 8, 10, 11 & 19.
>
> John wrote:
> > At any rate, the "baptism of the Spirit with evidence of
> > speaking in tongues" has such poor theological foundation
> > that it, as a doctrine, is quickly vanishing from the scene
> > of the Pentecostal community.
>
> If such were true, it would only be evidence of an apostasy and unbelief
> within the Pentecostal community. There is a very solid theological
> foundation for the concept that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is
> accompanied by speaking in tongues. It is primarily those whose foundation
> of learning is based upon objective proof that deny such.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
> you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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