Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or
you, I choose the Holy Spirit.
This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not every
creature. This is confirmed in v20: "And they went forth, and preached every
where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following." "They" here also refers
to the eleven, the same "they" who went forth.
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:34:10 -0500
Perry, I appreciate you bringing up a specific consideration about this
passage. I'm rather surprised by your line of reasoning.
The antecedent of "HE" is "all creatures," not "exclusively the apostles."
Let's examine a more full context for this passage.
Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel
to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
In verse 14, we can see readily that Jesus was speaking to the eleven
apostles, but in verse 16 Jesus was speaking about those to whom they would
be preaching. Verse 15 says, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to EVERY CREATURE. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE
SAVED..." and then it goes on to explain what signs would follow them that
believe.
My objections to your suggestion are several:
1. It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the reading to try
and make the "He" of vs. 16 refer to the eleven rather than to every
creature to whom they preached.
Your comment "1. It takes a great amount of unnecessary twisting of the
reading to try and make the "He" of vs. 16 refer to the eleven." I find to
be a specious argument with no basis. It is an opinion, which I appreciate,
but do not accept.
2. One would then have to conclude that the promise of salvation through
believing and baptism applies only to the eleven, and that the concept of
damnation through not believing applied only to the eleven also. Do you
think any of the eleven were damned for not believing?
One does not have to believe that these concepts apply only to the eleven.
While these passages DO confirm this for the eleven, it does not exclude
ANYONE. Scripture elsewhere may give further details about others.
None of the 11 were damned (as far as I know) because they all
believed...however, Judas did not believe, and, yes, he was damned.
3. The only way I could possibly view the signs as referring to the eleven
is if Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that PREACH." He did
not say that. The text says that these signs shall follow them that
BELIEVE. Furthermore, other passages of Scripture show that this is what
happened, that signs followed others besides the eleven apostles (men like
Stephen, Philip, Ananias, and also other apostles like Paul and Barnabas,
and also church elders such as those mentioned in James 5:14-15), and that
such signs are indicated as being expressed throughout the church in
passages like 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc.
Sorry jesus did not say it the way you can understand it.
Okay, we confirm that other passages support these things applying to
others. However, this does NOT mean that the Mark 16 v16-20 have to apply to
others. (Besides, I have read some accounts of scripture that say v9-20 are
not in the earliest manuscripts!)
I'll wait for your response before saying anything more at this time.
Dave, this exchange calls out an important point that is currently being
discussed here on TT. I am sure you believe that the holy Spirit gave you
your interpretation. And, I am sure the Holy Spirit gave me mine. Now, how
do we go about resolving this? Who is right? Would the Holy Spirit give both
you and I different and contradicting understanding? How do you go about
decideding that what the Holy Spirit told you is the right understanding?
Perry
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
David,
Regarding your item 2, we might also conclude that Jesus was speaking
specifically to the apostles, and that this does not apply to all
believers.
The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe
to exclusively be the apostles.
Perry
David wrote:
2. Mark 16:16-20
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any
of
these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the
concept
of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept
of
it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take
the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith
is.
----------
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know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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