David -- this post causes me some concern.
Aaahh, but I will limit my response to your comments. Read on.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "David Miller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John wrote:
> > I do believe that the apostles had a
measure
> > of the Spirit that was in addition that of the
> > gifts of the Spirit
>
> The apostolic office is
characgterized by special signs and wonders, yes, So I am right to say that the biblical record presents an
unique performance on the part of the apostles.
> but this should not be characterized as you have
done here. Read 1 Cor. 12
> for the proper perspective of apostles to
the rest of the body of Christ.
> Why not
state my 'characterization." I would be will to bet money that
you have it wrong. You introduce I Co 12 so others will
think you are actually quoting scritpure, when, in fact, you have
given us nothing to consider.
> John wrote:
&g t; > ... the 7 deacons could not do anything of a
>
> miracluous nature before the apostles layed
> > hands on
them.
>
> Mere speculation on your part, which flies in the
face of church tradition and historical writings. Furthermore, the
Scriptures themselves suggest otherwise when they describe these men
already as men of faith, filled with the Holy Ghost. No more speculative than your position. What church
tradition do you have in mind? What is your source on
'historical writings?"
>
> John wrote:
>
> Miracles do continue in the church to this day
> > but to the
exclusion of "faith healings."
>
> An effeminate remark which
even the female founder of your church has disagreed with.
If you had a picture of me, you would accuse me
of "effeminate" anything. Apparently you honor Semple as some kind of
authority within the Christian co mmunity. I do not.
>
> John wrote:
> > There is no more
impartation of scripture.
>
> Speculation and presumption,
which might be right, but it has no basis of authority. Now, right, I have to believe that you have, once again,
found yourself to be in theological pickle (see how much better I
do when I stick with bibilcial considerations and avoid discussions on
"logic" and the like?) You admit that the apostle do have uniques
powers and appear to agree that there is no more scripture ("..you might be
right ..") -- but, well, if you agreee totally, you don't
get to right in a discussion with John the Dufus so you speak of
"speculation, preseumption ... [and] no basis of
authority" for believing that the Bible is closed any additional
scripture ------------ somethin I actually believe YOU
believe. But save facr if you must. It just makes
you look a little silly.
the Ephesian
church for testing false apostles if John was the last one?
Because Ephesians was written years before
the passing of the apostles???????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You
are losing it , David.
Why would there be any testing at this time if
> John was to be
the last apostle? there's a good chance all of
the apostles are still alive at this point in
time.
I have known personally two men
who have been raised from the dead. I have met apostles who have
reported to me experiences of raising the dead, of people being healed
as they walked by, and who have had cloths taken to the sick and seen
them healed. Just because you have met false apostles does not mean
they are all false apostles. I have met false apostles too.
And now wee come to the difficult
part. You cannot and do not deal with issues I have raised with
a continued discussion of the biblical text. Rather, you turn to
personal testimony. The problem is complicated by the fact
that I believe that God can raise the dead in this day and time.
We have prayed for people who were technically "dead" who came
back.. Such a miracle is credited to prayer. No one has ever
been raised the mortuary's slabe, however. But let's not
get into personal argument on this issue. I do not and will
never accept modern day testimony on these matters apart from personal
verification. I cnanot. I am a pastor and what I say
is beleive by others. So I will not speak from your
experience. Sorry. Nothing personal. Our
experiences, apparently , are vastly different. And within the
Four Square commu nity, I am verymuch at home. This would
be their stance as well.
>
> When Jesus ascended on high, he gave gifts unto men,
namely, apostles,
> prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The
reason they were given was
> for the perfecting of the saints, for
the work of the ministry, and for the
> edifying of the body of
Christ. This was to be until we all come in the
> unity of the faith
and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect
> man, unto
the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Now when
>
someone starts stripping away these gifts, claiming that the apostles are no
> longer in the body of Christ, or that the modern prophet is now the
> theologian, or other such fantasies, it only serves to change the
body of
> Christ into something else, more akin to a Christian social
club. Why is it
> that people are so accepting of teachers and
pastors, but they do everything
> they can to discredit and remove
from the body of Christ the apostles and
> prophets? I say that until
we are brought into unity of faith and
> knowledge, unto a perfect
man and the fullness of Christ, we need them all.
> If we have not
arrived at such, part of the reason is that we reject the
> present
day ministry of apostles and prophets, so the local church has no
>
solid foundation in Christ.
>
> Ephesians 4:8-16
> (8)
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity
>
captive, and gave gifts unto men.
> (9) (Now that he ascended, what
is it but that he also descended first into
> the lower parts of the
earth?
> (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far
above all
> heavens, that he might fill all things.)
> (11)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
> and some, pastors and teachers;
> (12) For the perfecting of
the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the
> edifying of the
body of Christ:
> (13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, an
d of the knowledge of the
> Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the
measure of the stature of the
> fulness of Christ:
> (14) That
we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried
>
about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning
> craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
> (15) But
speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things,
>
which is the head, even Christ:
> (16) From whom the whole body fitly
joined together and compacted by that
> which every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual working in the
> measure of every part,
maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of
> itself in love.
>
> Ephesians 2:19-22
> (19) Now therefore ye are no
more strangers and foreigners, but
> fellowcitizens with the saints,
and of the household of God;
> (20) And are built upon the foundation
of the apostles and prophets, Jesus
> Christ himself being the ch ief
corner stone;
> (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together
groweth unto an holy
> temple in the Lord:
> (22) In whom ye
also are builded together for an habitation of God through
> the
Spirit.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
with salt, that you may know how
> you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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