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Certainly I think Jesus was born of God, Dean.
And I will be glad to address that aspect of his person. But before going
there I would like to clearly state that you seem to be making a different
argument than Judy's. And if you are, then my question would not
apply in the same way to you as it does to her. And so, I would like you
to be sure you are truly affirming the same things as she, before you
speak on her behalf.
From my understanding of Judy's position,
she denies that Jesus was born a flesh-and-blood descendant of David
through physical birth to Mary. She believes that God made a special kind of
flesh for Jesus and put it in Mary's womb, and that that flesh was
unrelated to fallen humankind, being only "similar" to that of us. That is,
she believes Jesus' flesh was like Adam's before he fell. Hence because of her
beliefs, Judy cannot affirm the teaching that Jesus is a physical
descendant of Adam, and that he is the physical Seed of Abraham and
the physical Seed of David, all according to the flesh.
Why don't you let me tell what I believe
in my own words Bill - I find the above unrecognizable; it is certainly
nothing that would come from me. I
know nothing about special kinds of flesh; I do know of two different kinds of
nature
though, one fallen and the other holy and
pure. Ours is fallen. Jesus' was not. His was pure and holy
from birth.
This and this alone is the "great
divide" Please do not put your words and concepts in my mouth
Bill. Let Dean
ask me himself if he wants to know what I
believe.
You, on the other hand, write that you are not
denying the biblical teaching that Jesus was the Seed of David according to
the flesh and that he was born of David's flesh and blood. You appear to
be affirming the truth that Jesus' humanity came from the fruit of
David's "genitals" (Friberg) according to the flesh. In short, you
seem to believe that Jesus really was David's "offspring."
Dean, that is a different position all-together
from Judy's. My question for you is, did you realize what you were affirming
when answering my question?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:47
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/18/2006 8:19:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
The question is still out
there. What person among us indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that
Jesus Christ, the Seed of David according to the flesh, was born of
David's flesh and blood?
Bill
cd: Nor am I denying that Bill, but what of
the power of the over shadowing of the Holy Spirit-didn't He also
contribute something to the child Jesus.It would seem to me that this
debate is not whether Christ was born of the flesh-Judy and I agree on
this-but wasn't He also born of God? We think so- you guys don't seem
to agree. Am I right bro?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006
2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked
them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is
He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them,
"How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 'The
LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies
Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his
Son?"
Oh, and you know the question that you and
the Pharisees can't answer: "If David then calls him 'Lord,' how is he
his son?" Well, since Jesus is both God and man, he is both
David's Lord (God) and his son (man). That's what Peter is saying in
Acts 2.36: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that
God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and Christ (Son of David)."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006
2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
I explained this the other day, Judy; in
fact you may return to my post on Acts 3.36 if you like. This is a
statement -- and strong affirmation on the part of David -- in
regards to Jesus' divine nature. We have been discussing his human
nature. Where you confuse the two, I do not. Hence it is not a problem
for me to believe that the deity of Jesus predated David, just like it
predated Abraham, while later his humanity received their
Seed. The one needs not cancel out the other, unless one confuses the
two -- but then, of course, one is no longer speaking of
Christ.
Work on the following passage, Judy; it
should help you with your unbelief:
"For David says concerning him: 'I foresaw the LORD
always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be
shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not
leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see
corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You
will make me full of joy in Your presence.' Men and
brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch
David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to
this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had
sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according
to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his
throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection
of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His
flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we
are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of
God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy
Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For
David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The
LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your
enemies Your footstool.'" Therefore let all the house of Israel know
assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both
LORD and Christ."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18,
2006 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus
, neither God nor Man
Jesus Himself and I agree with Him rather
than with "orthodoxy"... ie:
"While the Pharisees
were gathered together Jesus asked them, saying "What think ye of Christ?
Whose son is he?" They say unto him. The son of David. He
saith unto them.
"How then doth David in
spirit call him Lord saying The Lord said unto my Lord, sit
thou on my right
hand till I make thine enemies thy
footstool?" If David then call him Lord, how is he his
son?
Looks like you are stuck in the same rut as
the Pharisees of that day were Bill .... (Matt
22:42-46)
What person among us
indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that Jesus Christ was born
with David's blood
running through his
veins?
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to
testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and
the Offspring of David,
the Bright and Morning Star." --
Rev 22.16
"Men
and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb
is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and
knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the
fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise
up the Christ to sit on his throne," (Acts 2.29-30).
Although it was by way of his adoption by
Joseph that he was qualified to sit on the thrown, it was
not by way of adoption that Jesus became the Seed of David:
that came to him "according to the flesh":
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ
comes from the seed (sperma) of David and from the town of
Bethlehem, where David was?" (Joh 7.42).
"... concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
who was born of the seed (sperma) of David according to the
flesh," (Rom 1.3).
"Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed
(sperma) of David, was raised from the dead according to my
gospel," (2Tim 2.8).
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January
16, 2006 10:14 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Are you saying, Judy, that Mary
is not of David's lineage? You had better think this
through, as Jesus absolutely must be of the Seed of Abraham,
which passes through David on its way to the fulfillment of
the promise in Christ. "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the
promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many,
but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ" (Gal
2.16). And it is not by way of adoption that Abraham's Seed
finds fulfillment in Christ. That would be a blasphemous
thought: "What purpose then does the law
serve? It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the
promise was made" (Gal 2.19).
You know, Judy, you always say
"Show me in Scripture." Well, you have been shown. Now, is
that all smoke, or are you going to live by your
words?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January
16, 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Luke writes that Jesus was born of the fruit of
David's genitals (Act 2.30):
Not exactly Bill "David being a prophet and
knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his
throne."
Right, so in Matt we have a genealogy that
shows Joseph is in David's lineage but he
is
hardly the biological father of Jesus is
he? Even though Jesus is born in his
lineage.
hence he was not some kind of new
humanity, freshly brewed with new
material, unrelated to fallen humankind;
No, he is human like David was human, born on
our side of the fall.
He did not come to this earth through
procreation Bill. He did not have a human father - He
may have been
born on this side of the fall but
he was most definitely not born fallen. One can not be
fallen and holy ATST
And to the naysayers Jesus said,
"Before Abraham was, I AM"; hence Jesus pre-dated even
Abraham, David' predecessor. But it was not his
humanity which pre-dated David; it was his
divinity. And notice: he did not say that his Father
was the I AM, and that he was copying him.
No, Jesus said that he (and this before his
glorification) is I AM; that is, Yahweh,
the LORD who covenants with
Abraham.
So?? Noone here
disputes his heritage.
Jesus is FULLY GOD and fully man,
two realities in one person, united -- but
make him anything less than God or
anything more than man and you are courting
a demon, who is powerless to save you.
Either that or you are
courting religious spirits who are filling your head
with the doctrines they have been promoting
for thousands of
years. He doesn't have to be fully anything. He
is who the Word of God
says He is - which is
the Word made flesh.
Bill
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