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I
know nothing about special kinds of flesh; I do know of two different kinds of
nature though, one fallen and the other
holy and pure. Ours is fallen. Jesus' was not. His was pure
and holy from birth. This and this alone
is the "great divide" Please do not put your words and concepts in my
mouth Bill.
Judy do you believe Jesus had
the same flesh as we have, that his flesh came from Mary's DNA? If ours is
fallen and his is not, then why is his not special? It would certainly be
superior to ours. Would it not? That, it seems to me, is
special.
And please notice,
Judy, that I spoke "from my understanding" of your position. Doesn't help
you to know how I am hearing you?
And I've got another question
for you, Judy: Why didn't you climb down Dean's throat like you did mine? He
actually did claim to be speaking for you?
I get the distinct impression
that you hate me.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:56
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither
God nor Man
Certainly I think Jesus was born of God, Dean.
And I will be glad to address that aspect of his person. But before going
there I would like to clearly state that you seem to be making a different
argument than Judy's. And if you are, then my question would not
apply in the same way to you as it does to her. And so, I would like you
to be sure you are truly affirming the same things as she, before you
speak on her behalf.
From my understanding of Judy's position,
she denies that Jesus was born a flesh-and-blood descendant of David
through physical birth to Mary. She believes that God made a special kind of
flesh for Jesus and put it in Mary's womb, and that that flesh was
unrelated to fallen humankind, being only "similar" to that of us. That is,
she believes Jesus' flesh was like Adam's before he fell. Hence because of
her beliefs, Judy cannot affirm the teaching that Jesus is a physical
descendant of Adam, and that he is the physical Seed of Abraham
and the physical Seed of David, all according to the flesh.
Why don't you let me tell what I believe
in my own words Bill - I find the above unrecognizable; it is certainly
nothing that would come from me.
I know nothing about special kinds of flesh; I do know of two different
kinds of nature
though, one fallen and the other holy
and pure. Ours is fallen. Jesus' was not. His was pure and
holy from birth.
This and this alone is the "great
divide" Please do not put your words and concepts in my mouth
Bill. Let Dean
ask me himself if he wants to know what
I believe.
You, on the other hand, write that you are not
denying the biblical teaching that Jesus was the Seed of David according to
the flesh and that he was born of David's flesh and blood. You appear
to be affirming the truth that Jesus' humanity came from the fruit of
David's "genitals" (Friberg) according to the flesh. In short, you
seem to believe that Jesus really was David's "offspring."
Dean, that is a different position all-together
from Judy's. My question for you is, did you realize what you were affirming
when answering my question?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006
6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/18/2006 8:19:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
The question is still out
there. What person among us indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that
Jesus Christ, the Seed of David according to the flesh, was born of
David's flesh and blood?
Bill
cd: Nor am I denying that Bill, but what
of the power of the over shadowing of the Holy Spirit-didn't He also
contribute something to the child Jesus.It would seem to me that this
debate is not whether Christ was born of the flesh-Judy and I agree on
this-but wasn't He also born of God? We think so- you guys don't
seem to agree. Am I right bro?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006
2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked
them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is
He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to
them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,'
saying: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I
make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him
'Lord,' how is He his Son?"
Oh, and you know the question that you
and the Pharisees can't answer: "If David then calls him 'Lord,' how
is he his son?" Well, since Jesus is both God and man, he is
both David's Lord (God) and his son (man). That's what Peter is saying
in Acts 2.36: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly
that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and Christ (Son of David)."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18,
2006 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus
, neither God nor Man
I explained this the other day, Judy;
in fact you may return to my post on Acts 3.36 if you like. This is
a statement -- and strong affirmation on the part of David
-- in regards to Jesus' divine nature. We have been discussing
his human nature. Where you confuse the two, I do not. Hence it is
not a problem for me to believe that the deity of Jesus predated
David, just like it predated Abraham, while later his
humanity received their Seed. The one needs not cancel out the
other, unless one confuses the two -- but then, of course, one is no
longer speaking of Christ.
Work on the following passage, Judy; it
should help you with your unbelief:
"For David says concerning him: 'I foresaw the LORD
always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not
be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was
glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will
not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to
see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' Men and
brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch
David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to
this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God
had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body,
according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his
throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the
resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades,
nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised
up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to
the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the
promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see
and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he
says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right
hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.'" Therefore
let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this
Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and
Christ."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18,
2006 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Jesus , neither God nor Man
Jesus Himself and I agree with Him rather
than with "orthodoxy"... ie:
"While the Pharisees
were gathered together Jesus asked them, saying
"What think ye of Christ?
Whose son is he?" They say unto him. The son of David. He
saith unto them.
"How then doth David in
spirit call him Lord saying The Lord said unto my Lord, sit
thou on my right
hand till I make thine enemies thy
footstool?" If David then call him Lord, how is he his
son?
Looks like you are stuck in the same rut
as the Pharisees of that day were Bill .... (Matt
22:42-46)
What person among us
indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that Jesus Christ was
born with David's blood
running through his
veins?
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to
testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and
the Offspring of David,
the Bright and Morning Star." --
Rev 22.16
"Men
and brethren, let me speak freely to you of
the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and
his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a
prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to
him that of the fruit of his body, according to the
flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his
throne," (Acts 2.29-30).
Although it was by way of his adoption by
Joseph that he was qualified to sit on the thrown, it
was not by way of adoption that Jesus became the Seed of
David: that came to him "according to the flesh":
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ
comes from the seed (sperma) of David and from the town of
Bethlehem, where David was?" (Joh 7.42).
"... concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
who was born of the seed (sperma) of David according to the
flesh," (Rom 1.3).
"Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed
(sperma) of David, was raised from the dead according to my
gospel," (2Tim 2.8).
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January
16, 2006 10:14 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Are you saying, Judy, that
Mary is not of David's lineage? You had better think this
through, as Jesus absolutely must be of the Seed of
Abraham, which passes through David on its way to the
fulfillment of the promise in Christ. "Now to Abraham and
his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to
seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who
is Christ" (Gal 2.16). And it is not by way of adoption
that Abraham's Seed finds fulfillment in Christ. That
would be a blasphemous thought: "What purpose then
does the law serve? It was added because of
transgressions, till the Seed should
come to whom the promise was made" (Gal
2.19).
You know, Judy, you always
say "Show me in Scripture." Well, you have been shown.
Now, is that all smoke, or are you going to live by your
words?
Bill
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
January 16, 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Luke writes that Jesus was born of the fruit
of David's genitals (Act 2.30):
Not exactly Bill "David being a prophet and
knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
he would raise up Christ to sit on his
throne."
Right, so in Matt we have a genealogy that
shows Joseph is in David's lineage but he
is
hardly the biological father of Jesus is
he? Even though Jesus is born in his
lineage.
hence he was not some kind of new
humanity, freshly brewed with new
material, unrelated to fallen humankind;
No, he is human like David was human, born on
our side of the fall.
He did not come to this earth through
procreation Bill. He did not have a human father -
He may have been
born on this side of the fall
but he was most definitely not born fallen. One can
not be fallen and holy ATST
And to the naysayers Jesus said,
"Before Abraham was, I AM"; hence Jesus pre-dated
even Abraham, David' predecessor. But it was not his
humanity which pre-dated David; it was his
divinity. And notice: he did not say that his Father
was the I AM, and that he was copying him.
No, Jesus said that he (and this before his
glorification) is I AM; that
is, Yahweh, the LORD who covenants with
Abraham.
So?? Noone
here disputes his heritage.
Jesus is FULLY GOD and fully man,
two realities in one person, united -- but
make him anything less than God or
anything more than man and you
are courting a demon, who is powerless to save
you.
Either that or you
are courting religious spirits who are filling your
head with the doctrines they have been promoting
for thousands of
years. He doesn't have to be fully anything.
He is who the Word of God
says He is - which
is the Word made flesh.
Bill
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