cd writes: If it is true that the entire world enters like
reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to
be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the need of a
mediator to present our case before God.
"Reconciliation" took
place in Christ, Dean. He defeated sin at the cross, thereby reconciling the
world to God; for while we
were yet sinners, Christ died for us; and if one died
for all, then all died in him. This is symbolized in the
tearing of the curtain from top to bottom. Why then the need for a
mediator? because Christ stands where the curtain once hung. What once prevented
man from approaching God (because humans continue to sin and fall short of
his glory) is now mediated by the one who is both man and God. He did
what could not be done by man alone and what he did in man he did for
man as well. Ours is thus a priest who can fully commiserate with our struggle,
in whom we approach God with boldness and confidence through faith in
him.
_____________________________________________________________
2Pe
2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions
of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are
again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than
the beginning."
cd writes: If they were not true Christians
why does verse 20 state that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus
Christ as the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin
again?
Verse 20 doesn't say that; in
fact, it doesn't even mention sin or its removal; rather, that is your
interpretation of this verse. I interpret it differently. Peter is simply saying
that they -- the false teachers -- having been members of this church, have
first-hand knowledge of Jesus Christ and therefore have no excuse for denying
him and returning to the pollutions of the world beyond that believing
community.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:28
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd
2 cd)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 11:12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
cd: Yes-that is why God will hold these
sins to their accountably.To think otherwise would make the God we
know a mean Spirit who punishes his creation for doing something
that they could not help
"Now all things are of God, who has
reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the
ministry of reconciliation; that is, that God was in Christ
reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their
trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of
reconciliation." -- 2Corinthians 5.18-19
cd: Yes he removed transgressions from those whom came to
receive Christ
Well, Dean, I would argue that that is
not what the passage states.
but what about those who return to sin or those who reject
Christ-are you saying they are accountable for doing something they
cannot help but to do?
No, I am not. I am saying that the
entire world enters life reconciled to God in Christ. That is a fait
accompli. There is no "getting saved" about it. They are saved, and this
a mighty work of God in Christ. Those who mature to embody this truth by
believing in Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
whereupon their salvation is sealed, its surety resting in a
guarantee from God himself.
---------------------------------------------------
cd: If it is true that the entire world enters like
reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to
be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the
need of a mediator to present our case before God.
-----------------------------------------------------
BUT those who knew God (see Rom 1.21)
but reject Christ will eventually be lost, lest they repent of
that denial; for these are those who have trampled underfoot the Son of
God and insulted the Spirit of Grace, having denied the Lord who
redeemed them.
cd: Bill tell me how do you receive the below verse to
mean? It is in English and the words are connected to meaning behind the
words-what do you think those connections illustrate?
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to
have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known
it, to turn
from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according
to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the
sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
If you will trace the
context of this passage, you will discover that it begins
in chapter 2 verse 1. The "them" of 21 and 22 are thus
the "false teachers" of 2.1, who have denied the Lord who
bought them.
NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But there
were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves
swift destruction. ... 12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to
be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not
understand, ... 17 These are wells without water, ... 19 While they
promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption;
...
--------------------------------
cd: I
noticed you left out this verse why?2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the
pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
------------------------------
21 For it would have
been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than
having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to
them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A
dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her
wallowing in the mire."
David Miller (himself a Wesleyan in good
standing) and I had this discussion a few months back, and we
both concluded that the "false teachers" of Peter's address were
not and had never been true Christians (i.e., believers who had
once come to a genuine faith but had later lost their salvation);
rather, they were men who basically new enough of the gospel
to incorporate some of its language, thus sounding credible, but
had never been converted by its truth; hence their intentions from the
outset were not to follow Christ but to lead people astray. You are
welcome to disagree if you like, but rather than rewrite that book from
scratch, I would like to first direct you to the archives; perhaps after
reading our discussion and tracking its dynamics, you will have a
change of mind. Just search for "denying the Lord who bought (or
perhaps redeemed) them." This should eventually get you into
that thread.
--------------------------------------
cd: If they were not true Christians why does verse 20 state
that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus Christ as the
savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin again?
---------------------------------------
Thanks, bro.
Bill
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