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Yes, John: on the "faithfulness of Christ"
(in your recent post). I should have been a little more observant in my use
of Scripture below (I was referencing the NKJV). I am going to make a couple of
changes therefore in blue which
are represented in the Greek text by a genitive "of Christ" and not a dative "in
Christ." Notice how the weight of salvation shifts when we hold true to the
original language of Scripture. Thanks for reminding me of this. I will try to
be more astute in the application of my own scholarship
:>)
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 2:11
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd
2 cd)
cd writes: If it is true that the entire world enters like
reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to
be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the need of
a mediator to present our case before God.
"Reconciliation" took
place in Christ, Dean. He defeated sin at the cross, thereby reconciling
the world to God; for while we
were yet sinners, Christ died for us; and if one died
for all, then all died in him. This is symbolized in the
tearing of the curtain from top to bottom. Why then the need for a
mediator? because Christ stands where the curtain once hung. What once
prevented man from approaching God (because humans continue to sin and fall
short of his glory) is now mediated by the one who is both man and
God. He did what could not be done by man alone and what he did in man he did
for man as well. Ours is thus a priest who can fully commiserate with
our struggle, in whom we approach God with boldness and confidence through
the faithfulness of him (cf. Eph
3.12).
_____________________________________________________________
2Pe
2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions
of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they
are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them
than the beginning."
cd writes: If they were not true Christians
why does verse 20 state that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus
Christ as the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin
again?
Verse 20 doesn't say that; in
fact, it doesn't even mention sin or its removal; rather, that is your
interpretation of this verse. I interpret it differently. Peter is simply
saying that they -- the false teachers -- having been members of this church,
have first-hand knowledge of Jesus Christ and therefore have no excuse for
denying him and returning to the pollutions of the world beyond that believing
community.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:28
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness
(jd 2 cd)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 11:12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
cd: Yes-that is why God will hold these
sins to their accountably.To think otherwise would make the God we
know a mean Spirit who punishes his creation for doing something
that they could not help
"Now all things are of God, who has
reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the
ministry of reconciliation; that is, that God was in Christ
reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their
trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of
reconciliation." -- 2Corinthians 5.18-19
cd: Yes he removed transgressions from those whom came
to receive Christ
Well, Dean, I would argue that that
is not what the passage states.
but what about those who return to sin or those who
reject Christ-are you saying they are accountable for doing something
they cannot help but to do?
No, I am not. I am saying that the
entire world enters life reconciled to God in Christ. That is a fait
accompli. There is no "getting saved" about it. They are saved, and
this a mighty work of God in Christ. Those who mature to embody this
truth by believing in Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy
Spirit, whereupon their salvation is sealed, its surety resting
in a guarantee from God himself.
---------------------------------------------------
cd: If it is true that the entire world enters like
reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to
be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the
need of a mediator to present our case before God.
-----------------------------------------------------
BUT those who knew God (see Rom
1.21) but reject Christ will eventually be lost, lest they
repent of that denial; for these are those who have trampled underfoot
the Son of God and insulted the Spirit of Grace, having denied the
Lord who redeemed them.
cd: Bill tell me how do you receive the below verse to
mean? It is in English and the words are connected to meaning behind
the words-what do you think those connections illustrate?
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to
have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known
it, to
turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according
to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and
the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
If you will trace the
context of this passage, you will discover that it begins
in chapter 2 verse 1. The "them" of 21 and 22 are thus
the "false teachers" of 2.1, who have denied the Lord who
bought them.
NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But there
were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be
false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive
heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on
themselves swift destruction. ... 12 But these, like natural brute
beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things
they do not understand, ... 17 These are wells without water, ... 19
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of
corruption; ...
--------------------------------
cd: I
noticed you left out this verse why?2Pe
2:20 For if after they have
escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and
overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
------------------------------
21 For it would have
been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment
delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the
true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having
washed, to her wallowing in the
mire."
David Miller (himself a Wesleyan in
good standing) and I had this discussion a few months back,
and we both concluded that the "false teachers" of Peter's
address were not and had never been true Christians (i.e.,
believers who had once come to a genuine faith but had later lost
their salvation); rather, they were men who basically new enough of
the gospel to incorporate some of its language, thus sounding
credible, but had never been converted by its truth; hence their
intentions from the outset were not to follow Christ but to lead
people astray. You are welcome to disagree if you like, but rather
than rewrite that book from scratch, I would like to first direct you
to the archives; perhaps after reading our discussion and tracking its
dynamics, you will have a change of mind. Just search for
"denying the Lord who bought (or perhaps redeemed) them."
This should eventually get you into that thread.
--------------------------------------
cd: If they were not true Christians why does verse 20
state that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus Christ as
the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin
again?
---------------------------------------
Thanks, bro.
Bill
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