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Dean says "I AM RIGHT"!! The 'mantle' has been
passed from DM to CD.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: February 06, 2006 16:58
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/6/2006 7:47:26 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
I took those thing you mentioned in the
above and compared them to commandments and found none of them were
sin-unless taken into excess.
That's the point, Dean. As soon
as you give people the power to take away salvation, they start making up
ways of doing it.
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cd: Who would give people power to take one
salvation away? Salvation is a personal issue between God and man-as such it
is untouchable for other people.
----------------------------
Thank you for your concern. I am
open to just about anything, but over the years certain excursions have
proven to be less fruitful than others. I used to think this debate --
Calvinism v Arminianism, with its different forms -- was the most important
in-house debate for Christians. I pursued it with gusto -- from both sides
:>) I can see now how little fruit it beared. I don't want to squander
more friendships on secondary issues.
I think Jesus Christ and getting
to know him is where we need to spend our time.
----------------------------------
cd: And if I am right?And I am. What
then? Bill for some reason I think you know what I am saying to be the
truth-you are to smart not to know this.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 4:25
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 5:51:44 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
cd: You are using the work
"seal" wrong Bill. ...
In all respect, Dean,
yours is an exercise in futility with me. I grew up believing that
Christians could lose their salvation; in fact, I grew up believing that I
had lost mine on many occasions, and for many years I believed my dad
had gone to hell because of "sins" he was still committing when he
passed (for instance, he still liked to have a beer every now and then,
and he still enjoyed playing cards to pass the time). Well, I have
since discovered the amazing grace of God in Jesus Christ, and I love
him -- and, quite frankly, it'll be a cold day in HELL before I'll go
back to anybody's performance-based, DAISY approach to the
Gospel. It just ain't gonna happen. And so, if you want to
spell it out for the "benefit" of others, that is your prerogative; but
please don't do it on my account, because I won't be listening.
La-la-La-la-La-La-
cd: Bill I respect your right to
not listen and will withdraw in this private forum-But I will leave you
with one thing. I also know what it is like to live with the
constant fear of causing harm to my relationship with God-I never want
to go back to that-that is why many people are in mental hospitals.But
at some point in my misery God gave me a revelation and it stemmed from
the passage to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". I
took those thing you mentioned in the above and compared them to
commandments and found none of them were sin-unless taken into
excess.That is my point for promoting a clear understanding of the
commandments as to break one can be forgiven if the remorse is there and
the repentance-then one goes on with life trusting in Christ to mediate
that wrong.The wonderful part is that he can mediate anything a
Christian would do:-) But to be evil and to continue on in sinning
against God and others is a different matter entirly.Believing in
keeping God's co mmandments with fear has not bounded me to suffering
but has instead freed me to a better life and helped me to relax-but
also to watch myself. This is not only brought joy to my life but also
brought a closer relationship with God.
I have found to all those
things I had been taught wasn't sin as I took the time to study what the
commandments were to and understand that some things take time to
grow into.I am sorry to hear that you believe you father went to hell
over such things. To help clear up any misunderstand I will leave you
with 2 verses to consider that should cause freedom in your
life.
cd:Notice in the below that these
commandment breakers not only taught wrong but lived wrong and still
made it to heaven.Why -I think because they lived in ignorance of what
the specific commandment was-or that they hadn't been given a clear
indication of what the commandment included.For me to believe one went
to hell is to judge without complete understanding for there is more
there then what it would seem to be-I believe you did this with your
father.
Mat 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
cd:Bill this below is the joy and freedom I am
speaking about-Godly fear without being grieved.
1Jo 5:3 For
this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
cd: I would ask you to do this Bill. Do you
have a words search for the bible? If so- type in commandments and look
how many times they are mentioned in the new testiment.Again none of us
know the entire bible so we learn from each other-there are many thing
you have written about that I want to question you about to learn from
you-but as we are in this issue- I hesitate to bring up a new topic. We
learn from each other Bill and there is no shame of not knowing-the
shame is to reject the truth.
Respectfully,
Thank you for the respect and for this as
I understand you better-may God bless you Bill.You were in my prayers
last night and will be there tonight.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 12:51:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Bill do you see any fault in
the below?
Dean, here
is a quotation from that passage: "If they (the frames and
feelings) are not in us, it is a sure sign that though the
wilderness became a pool, the pool is become a wilderness again."
I can agree that
a believer can apostate to the point that God will take him home, so
to speak, so as to prevent him from irreparable destruction. But I
am not convinced that a true believer can lose his or her salvation,
once having received the guarantee and seal of the
Holy Spirit; for that is no longer the Christian going back on his
word; it is God.
----------------------------------------------
cd: You are using the work
"seal" wrong Bill. God uses the seal of the Holy Ghost to
mark his property.The quarantee is that if we walk in
Holiness we will be accepted by God.Why test something that has
already been guaranteed for service and heaven?We Christians are
tested.
Eph 4:30 And
grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption.
Whereby ye are sealed - The Holy Spirit in the
soul of a believer is Gods seal, set on his heart to testify that
he is Gods property, and that he should be wholly employed
in Gods service. It is very likely that the apostle had in view the
words of the prophet, Isa_63:10 : But they rebelled, and
Vexed his Holy Spirit; therefore he was turned to be their enemy,
and fought against them. The psalmist refers to the same fact in
nearly the same words, Psa_78:40 : How oft did they Provoke
him in the wilderness, and Grieve him in the desert! Let every man,
therefore, take heed that he grieve not the Spirit of God, lest God
turn to be his enemy, and fight against him.
Webster Dictionary: Seal
6. To mark with a stamp, as an evidence of standard exactness,
legal size, or merchantable quality. By our laws, weights and
measures are to be sealed by an officer appointe and sworn
for that purpose; and lether is to be sealed by a like
officer, as evidence that it has been inspected and found to be of
good quality.
7. To keep secret.
Shut up the words, and seal the book. Dan 11. Isa 8.
8. To mark as ones property, and secure from danger.
9. To close; to fulfill; to complete; with up.
10. To imprint on the ; as, to seal instruction.
11. To inclose; to hide; to conceal.
12. To confine; to restrain.
cd: Consider the parable of the sower:He heard the word of
Christ, and recieved Christ-endured for a while-falls away when it
got tough.
Mat 13:20 But he
that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth
the
word,
and
anon
with
joy
receiveth
it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 04,
2006 6:11 AM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 10:55:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
It may be helpful to
distinguish between duality and
dualism.
cd; Yeah what he
said:-)
I'll defer to
John's comments for now, Dean, as his are insightful and I
do not wish to devote the time to the topic which would be
needed to draw out the distinctions. Suffice it to say that
(1) I see two distinct natures at work in the person of Christ
prior to his death and resurrection: a human nature, replete
with all the limitations commensurate with fallen humanity; and
a Divine nature, which is fully God. (2) I also see two distinct
natures at work in his person after the resurrection: the
same Divine nature as before, along with a new, glorified human
nature. (3) As it pertains to us as Christians, I see two
distinct natures at work in our members: an old fallen nature
which refuses to stay down (if you will allow some latitude with
this language); and a new nature which is that of the
resurrected Christ, as ministered to us by the Holy Spirit.
Moreover, (4) I believe that the old nature will be erased
in our resurrection, never again to rear its ugly h
ead; that will leave us with but one nature,
the same nature which we received from Christ in the new
birth.
Dean, I hope
this makes sense and helps you to understand how I can find
agreement with David on the topic of dualism, without desiring
to delve into a detailed discussion on its distinctions in a
separate thread.
-------------------------------
cd: Bill I can agree with
yours-and Johns- presentation and of dualism in the
brethren for a time. But I also feel one must allow for the
guidance of the Holy Spirit to stronger levels of Holiness that
will press the old man into total subjection for this is
pleasing to God. Love would be the domination word for this as
it is the domination emotion for us Christians. With love I will
not get angry for being struck -with love I will not lust for
the scantly dressed women my heart will pull back from that
sin-love is the only way to fulfill the law of loving my
neighbor as myself.Love will root out all sin in the flesh.As we
grow in sanctification we are growing in love to where even
dualism is no longer a factor for me as my union is with the
father, Son ,and the Holy Ghost.Bill do you see any fault in the
below?
J. Wesley
wrote:
2Pe 3:18 - But grow in grace - That is,
in every Christian temper. There may be, for a time, grace
without growth; as there may be natural life without growth. But
such sickly life, of soul or body, will end in death, and every
day draw nigher to it. Health is the means of both natural and
spiritual growth. If the remaining evil of our fallen nature be
not daily mortified, it will, like an evil humour in the body,
destroy the whole man. But "if ye through the Spirit do mortify
the deeds of the body," (only so far as we do this,) "ye shall
live" the life of faith, holiness, happiness. The end and design
of grace being purchased and bestowed on us, is to destroy the
image of the earthy, and restore us to that of the heavenly. And
so far as it does this, it truly profits us; and also makes way
for more of the heavenly
gift, that we may at last be filled with all the fulness of God.
The strength and well - being of a Christian depend on what his
soul feeds on, as the heal th of the body depends on whatever we
make our daily food. If we feed on what is according to our
nature, we grow; if not, we pine away and die. The soul is of
the nature of God, and nothing but what is according to his
holiness can agree with it. Sin, of every kind, starves the soul, and makes it consume
away. Let us not try to invert the order of God in his new
creation: we shall only deceive ourselves. It is easy to forsake
the will of God, and follow our own; but this will bring
leanness into the soul. It is easy to satisfy ourselves without
being possessed of the holiness and happiness of the gospel. It
is easy to call these frames and feelings, and then to oppose
faith to one and Christ to the other. Frames (allowing the
_expression_) are no other
than heavenly tempers, "the mind that was in Christ." Feelings
are the divine consolations of the Holy Ghost shed abroad in the
heart of him that truly believes. And wherever faith is, and
wherever Christ is, there are these blessed frames and feelings.
If they are not in us, it is a sure sign that though the
wilderness became a pool, the pool is become a wilderness again.
And in the knowledge of Christ - That is, in faith, the root of
all. To him be the glory to the day of eternity - An _expression_
naturally flowing from that sense which the apostle had felt in
his soul throughout this whole chapter. Eternity is a day
without night, without interruption, without
end.
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