Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Fw: excerpt redux

[Kevin Deegan]

How can you relate the two was Job and now Zacchaeus a FORNICATOR also?

Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Lance Muir'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: March 15, 2006 08:20
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: excerpt redux


My, that was fast!

I guess we have to take his word for it. I wonder what sort of sign would
express an "accusatory and judgmental" attitude?

I was thinking this morning of our conversation yesterday about pointing out
people's sins and how Jesus dealt with specific sinners in the gospel
accounts, and Zacchaeus came into my mind. The Joanna method, as used by
Jesus!

D


-----Original Message-----
From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:39 AM
To: Debbie Sawczak
Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Fw: excerpt redux


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: March 15, 2006 07:30
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: excerpt redux


> Very interesting dialogue, Lance. I appreciate you sharing it with us.
>
> There is much more that can be developed here. The concept of love the
> sinner but hate the sin is problematic in certain contexts, but it is not
> entirely a logical contradiction. The reason is that the concept of
> "sinner" is not fixed in stone when it comes to humans. A sinner today
> may
> not be a sinner tomorrow. This is because of grace and the work of Christ
> to transform a sinner into a righteous saint who obeys the commandments of
> God.
>
> I have to address this issue often when I preach on the homosexual
> deception
> that is sweeping across this world. I find myself needing to communicate
> my
> love for the homosexual person but my hatred for the sin of homosexuality.
> How can I do this? Because I believe that homosexuality is preventable
> and
> curable. It is a sin problem that is solved by faith in Jesus Christ. I
> have no hatred in my heart toward most of those who consider themselves to
> be a homosexual. In fact, sometimes I am confronted by homosexual
> virgins,
> and I have to tell them that from my perspective they are not yet
> homosexual
> if they have never had any sexual relations with other men. God does not
> condemn a person based upon their inner desires or temptations, but rather
> he condemns them for sinful actions.
>
> A few weeks ago, a student attempted to point out this logical
> inconsistency
> mentioned below, that if I truly hated homosexuality, then I would have to
> hate the homosexual. I agreed with him, but with a caveat, that only in
> the
> case of the homosexual who would not or could not repent. If a person has
> given himself completely over to sin such as homosexuality, then yes, I
> should hate that homosexual because he is an abomination in the eyes of
> God.
> It is only in this way that I can love those whom he is hurting by his
> sin.
> However, many of the homosexuals on campus are not in this category.
> There
> is time for them to repent and be transformed by the grace of God.
> Concerning those homosexuals, I love them, and it is my love for them that
> causes me to sacrifice in order to deliver the message of repentance and
> hope to them.
>
> There is one other contextual issue here as well, and that is that I am in
> need of grace as much as any homosexual. Therefore, I cannot sit in
> judgment upon his sin without putting myself in jeopardy. In other words,
> if my attitude is not one of love when I call for his repentance, but
> rather
> is accusatory and judgmental, then how can I expect to receive mercy
> myself?
> No, what I must do is give the message of how repentance is apprehended in
> Jesus Christ, through confession of sin and a turning away from all that
> offends God. I do this as one who has experienced this work of grace. I
> testify to its work and exhort others to experience it as well.
> Therefore,
> there is a love in me for that person who is still able to repent and find
> Christ. It is in this context, with these other considerations, that I
> can
> say that I love the person who calls himself a homosexual because of the
> present philosophy in the world today, but hate the sin of homosexuality
> and
> call upon him to forsake it and abandon it.
>
> David Miller.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lance Muir
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 5:31 AM
> Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: excerpt redux
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Debbie Sawczak
> To: 'Lance Muir'
> Sent: March 14, 2006 22:04
> Subject: excerpt redux
>
>
> Lance, I was just printing out the next raw chapter (on "Two Kinds of
> Righteousness" and "A Meditation on Christ's Passion") in preparation for
> editing, and my eye lit on this portion at the end. I'm sending it to you
> raw, because being at the end of a 24-page chapter it'll be a while till I
> get to it in the editing. It's Q&A, and the point I was noticing was that
> sin has no existence apart from sinners, two interesting ramifications of
> which are (a) that Christ, in becoming sin, became sinner, and (b) that
> the
> aphorism, "hate the sin but love the sinner" is problematic. I think of
> both
> of these in relation to recent (well, not so recent anymore, perhaps)
> threads on TT.
>
> Any thoughts? What do you do with this hatred thingy?
>
> D
>
> [Question: I was just thinking about Christ being sinner or sin. And just,
> without having thought about it too much, it makes sense that he would
> have
> to be a sinner if he was being punished in proxy for humanity, because God
> was punishing – or God needed to punish – humanity, because they, as a
> collective whole, were sinners, so God was punishing sinners. So unless
> Christ became a sinner, then it wouldn't be a perfect substitution. If God
> was never interested in punishing sin …]
>
> That's exactly right.
>
> [… he was punishing sinners. So if all of a sudden you're just punishing
> sin, it would be different. It wouldn't be the same.]
>
> You can't punish sin. You can only punish sinners, because sin has no
> existence apart from sinners. Sin doesn't exist apart from sinners.
> Therefore to me, to say that Christ became sin but not sinner makes the
> same
> mistake, it falls into the same error. In the same way, when we speak of
> the
> love of God, what we really mean is God himself loving us at this moment.
> The love of God is God himself loving us. It isn’t that God is here, and
> he
> visits us with his love, you know, his love is detachable from him. That's
> not what we mean. Calvin will say, the person of God is found in all the
> acts of God. That's right: the person of God is found in all the acts of
> God. That's just another way of saying, God's judgement is God judging us.
> God's love is God himself loving us. Well then to say, to relate all of
> this
> to sin, is to say that we always live at the realm of the person and
> personhood. It's rather that what we call sin is highly abstract. The
> person
> of the sinner and the person of God are highly concrete. And it's at the
> level of the concrete that redemption always has to occur, not the level
> of
> the abstract.
>
> Clay?
>
> [Question: So that when people are discussing homosexuality, abortion,
> whatever the case may be, to take the line that, well, you know, we hate
> the
> sin but we love the sinner, that's sort of, off target?]
>
> Yes, it is. I've always said, in my first-year systematic theology class,
> that the old Christian aphorism, we have to love the sinner but hate the
> sin, is logically impossible. Sin has no existence apart from sinners. You
> can't hate sin, love sinners. You can only love and hate the sinner
> himself
> at the same time. I recognise the danger, oh, man, I recognise the danger,
> because if we ever legitimate the church's hatred of sinners, can you
> imagine what's going to happen tomorrow? But logically, you can't love
> sinners and hate sin, sin has no existence. This is safe in the hands of
> God, not safe in our hands, because Scripture, if you read Scripture with
> one eye open, what you find that God is a terrific hater, terrific hater.
> And at the same time, the hatred of God is always a manifestation of the
> love of God. And that's where it's safe in God but not safe in us, because
> Stephen's hatred here, Stephen's hatred of the homosexual isn't a
> manifestation of his love for him. It's just hatred, unqualified hatred.
> And
> that's why, on the one hand logically I want to say, you can't love
> sinners
> and hate sin, but on the other hand I'm so reluctant to say, we have to
> love
> and hate the sinner at the same time (as God does), because in our
> depravity, we don't do it as God does. God's love for the sinner will
> always
> be greater than his hatred for the sinner, but ours might not be, because
> his hatred only seeks to bring the sinner to the end of herself. But it
> won't always be the case with us. It's like saying, I hate adultery, but I
> can still find it in my heart to love people who commit adultery. Adultery
> has no existence apart from the person who does it. Strictly speaking,
> there's no such thing as adultery, there's simply a person who does it.
> And
> that's what we're always dealing with.
>
>
>
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> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
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