David, I honestly see a huge difference. Joanna seems to believe that those with whom she is working are in need of help -- the Corinthians were perfectly content with doing absolutely nothing. Our churches should be full of sinners willing to ask for help, willing to receive teaching, love, prayer and the spirit. I see no similarity between Joanna and the Corinthian Carnals. I know that you have spoken out against the church as a "hospital," in the past and I am always surprised at such thinking.
jd
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John, in my opinion based upon sketchy details, Joanna violated the teaching
> of Paul. Paul dealt with fornicators by instructing believers not to even
> eat with them. Paul rebuked the carnal Corinthians for doing the same thing
> Joanna was doing. Don't you see that? It is a difficult position to take,
> but that is the Scripture of 1 Cor. 3:1ff, 1 Cor. 5, etc.
>
> Now, we don't hear all the facts about her situation, so there are other
> possibilities here. Perhaps Joanna did not know this person very well and
> had not had time to instruct the person in righteousness. If this person
> responds to her admonition that such is wrong, then I don't have a problem
> with her eating with the person. However, if this person is a believer who
> knows better and ju stifies his fornication with the notion that everybody
> sins, then we have a problem along the lines of 1 Cor. Do you see it
> differently?
>
> David Miller
>
> p.s. I have eaten with ignorant Christian fornicators many times and will
> continue to do so, but it is because of their ignorance. There are others
> that know better with whom I have had to carry the cross and cut them off,
> even a family member ala Luke 14:26.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] Comfort the FORNICATORS!
>
> Perhaps my twentieth request. It is not what I think you beleive but what
> you actually believe that is the question. If I tell you what I think you
> believe, you will just make fun of me and hurt my feelings and stuff .
>
> Doe s Kevin beleive in the kind of mission activity demonstrated by Joanna
> and deemed necessary by Paul as he ministered to a carnal but saved bunch
> of disciples?
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> ELEVENTH REQUEST
> Please post a short summary of the position you want me to hold.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sounds like a bear with his foot in a trap !!
>
> It is so easy to set the record straight. You are all over people or
> activiity such as the one shared by Lance and his friend, Joanna Williams,
> and yet, you now seem to want others to believe that I have misrepresented
> you. Not my intention at all. What would you do differently than Paul
> and why? Or, would you rather moan for a while? Get back to me on that ,
> will you?
>
> Have I not quoted enough of your position on this? Give the word -- there
> is mo re.
>
> dj
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I see you as standing outside the door of the church rebuking
>
> Wake UP!
> It's just a NIGHMARE!
> Or a personal problem...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Your theology is herein included, Kevin. Now -- Back to I Cor 3:1ff. It
> appears (based on what is written) that we have a church full of carnal and
> immature people. It is my beleif that if this were a circumstance in which
> Joanna Williams could help -- she just might be doing her best to mentor
> these folk toward freedom in Christ and maturity in the Spirit. And that
> is exactly what Paul is trying to do with the writing of this Corinthian
> letter.
>
> I see you as standing outside the door of the church, rebuking them to the
> hell they so richly deserve (don't we all) and doing precious little t o
> actually help these brethren.. They are alive in Christ, yet carnal -- a
> circumstance that could work harm in their lives. This is a church with
> problems (more than likely a Missionary Baptist church.) Again, these
> disciples are alive in Christ, Christians if you will, but carnal yet in
> their walk with God. Actually, Paul deals with this weak fellowship of
> saints for several years, does he not -- perhaps three letters or more and
> a visit or two. He never recommended they be cut off from the larger
> church.
> So how does Kevin deal with this Apostolic example? Mock those who think
> to do what Paul was doing -- or ????????? I am curious. Can you
> answer this? telll us how the reality that is pictured in I Cor 3:1ff works
> in your thegology?
>
> jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> No surprise here from the "community" of salve your own conscience crowd.
> God's ways? It my way or the highway!
>
> SIN #1
> The sin is in doing it our way in direct disobedience to God's commands.
>
> SIN #2
> What help was offered has the Fornicator Repented?
> The attempt was about as useful as the same attempt to help in a Emergency
> room. More damage than help.
>
> This guy is headed for trouble where was the help?
> Comfort for Fornicators? That is a great help!
> whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> To imagine that there are those who think it a sin as one attempts to help
> those who cry for help demonstrates just how confused we can get in our
> individual theologies.
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> "Communit y" Conscience is an EXCUSE for lack of Personal responsibility &
> holiness.
> Therefore it's overwhelming popularity!
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Much of the effort we see in the posts from friends of Lance is illustrative
> of the Charles Sheldon's In His Steps. WWJD came from this book. It
> pictures the tension that is too exist between the corporate body (the
> church) and the individual. Our assemblage is designed to offer
> encouragement as we consider love and good works. To imagine that there are
> those who think it a sin as one attempts to help those who cry for help
> demonstrates just how confused we can get in our individual theologies.
>
> jd
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> it is also not our place to point out people's sins.
>
> Whatever happened to when you see a brother overtaken in...?
> Am azing ignorance of the Bible ignorance of holiness
> But then it does say some are willfuly ignorant
>
> I hope that a seed may have been planted and will take root eventually and
> bear fruit.
> This tapioca pussyfooting will never reawaken conciousness of sin
>
> But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be involved in that
> entire process.
>
> O No you have done your part you are a sin enabler. You want to be so
> inclusive while God says to be exclusive put them apart. You have touched
> the dead thing so much now you have the leaven on you and can not see it.
> But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among
> yourselves that wicked person.
>
> Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joanna Williams
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 14, 2006 01:02
> Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna William s - friend of some 10 years
> speaks on believing teens
>
>
> While I agree completely with what you are saying...it is also not our place
> to point out people's sins. May they see righteousness in our lives and be
> drawn to a life lived that speaks volumes..much more that words ever could.
> Francis of Assissi said well: Preach the gospel and use words when
> necessary. The earlier e-mail I sent was about a couple of
> encounters...which ended up in some substantial conversations. I hope that
> a seed may have been planted and will take root eventually and bear fruit.
> But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be involved in that
> entire process. I must do my part and then move on in faith, praying and
> trusting that God will do that miraculous work of transformation in people's
> lives that He always does. I ran a youth group here in Mississauga years
> ago where I had a friend of one of our young people from the church show up
> stoned out of her mind. I knew that everyone was watching how I would
> handle that as a youth leader. It wasn't easy but I wanted her to stay and
> did not chide her for being out of it...or not listening...or interrupting
> my lesson etc.. I continued to invite her out and she continued to
> come..sometimes in a mind-altered state. I eventually found out that she
> was dating a drug-dealer and as we talked I discovered that her mother had
> just become a Christian. She also confessed once in our group that her
> mother was her greatest role model and she admired her! I knew that God was
> working in the life of this young woman. One day when I went over to her
> place to invite her out for coffee, she couldn't wait to ask me a ton of
> questions about the Bible, Jesus, faith etc...We talked for hours that
> night. It was just another "coffee"..and yet it wasn't. People change when
> God wants them to. She was utterly h ungry for truth and probed more and
> more. We finally went home and a few days later she not only broke up with
> her drug-dealer boyfriend, witnessed to him, started going to church, gave h
> er life to God, got baptized, attended Redeemer University and is now a
> Christian counsellor. Her cousins have become Christian through her
> witness and still contact me once in a while to get together. Last summer,
> I had the privilege of attending her wedding to a wonderful Christian guy.
> I could go on and on about many young people like her. I have learned that
> often when I am least expecting it people will change. All of our words and
> judgements and pointing of sin in their lives is not what draws them. God's
> love and us living out that love in our lives draws them..and they will come
> to Him in their own time and way. There are young people out of that exact
> same youth group that I am still have "coffees" with! And will continue
> t o...even when they are not spiritually hungry YET... I feel it is so
> important to be faithful to people and pray them into the kingdom...not talk
> them into it. They know what I live for and they can see it and that's
> enough. And I have th i s feeling that they will know God in their own
> time. They are just on a journey of finding how life is empty without Him.
> It is during this time that we must stay faithful to them. Just some
> thoughts...
> Joanna
>
>
>
>
> From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Joanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on
> believing teens
> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:44:40 -0500
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ShieldsFamily
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent: March 12, 2006 08:45
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on
> believing teens
>
>
> Lance, from the small piece below I'd say Joanna has a heart of gold. I
> agree that rushing to judgment is one way to chase unbelievers away, and is
> not what Jesus did except with those who were religious hypocrites. First
> one must love and befriend, as she obviously does. But, as I told JD, we
> must also speak truth if we are to be ambassadors of Christ, just as Jesus
> did. He loved, He befriended, but He never hesitated to call sin a sin
> because He loved those He befriended enough to want to lead them to freedom
> from sin, as that is what ultimately will destroy our relationship with Him.
> That was His entire objective in dying on the cross, of course. Tough love
> is much harder for us to give than soft love. Tough love isn't harsh and
> angry; it is just the kind of love that pulls people towards the truth, even
> when it is tempting to gloss over the hard issues. Sin is the e lephant in
> the room; do we "love" people so much that we pretend it isn't there, or do
> we really love them enough to address the obvious? The fleshly Believer
> takes the easy path of just "loving and being loved," while the
> Spirit-filled Believer uses the truths of the Word to deliver the captives
> from sin as well as unbelief. Like being a parent, a Christian mentor
> always holds up the goal and then walks with you towards it. Poor parents
> are those who give "love, love, love," and never balance that with
> self-discipline and hard work-the children are ruined for life by their own
> selfishness and laziness. Jesus defined our goal as His disciples: Luke 5:
> 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. That, of
> course, is the issue I continually have with those of the "liberal
> Christian" persuasion-they have no fear of sin, for themselves or others.
> They don't realize that sin is what truly ails us . This is a hollow gosp e
> l that allows many to die in their sins. Izzy
> John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek
> me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
>
>
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:05 PM
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Subject: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on
> believing teens
>
> Well, since I'm being asked for a response on this...my initial feeling is
> that we need to live in the real world having contact with real
> people...perhaps listen a little more to others and how they live. In my
> experience with people, including believers by the way, struggle with sin is
> common. By the way, people are so much more harsh on visible sins such as
> addictions to alcohol, porno graphy, drugs etc....whereas I believe Jesus
> always looked deeper into our hearts and spoke to much that was invisible to
> many...such as self-righteousness, judgement towards others, jealousies,
> religious obsession. etc. These are way harder to weed out of our lives
> than outer behaviours that seem to upset the church so much. I pray that we
> may see these situations with the heart of God, listening and dealing with
> others on a very real level which unfortunately is so often tucked away and
> not t alked about enough. We have many hurting people in our churches who
> are deeply addicted to many non-christian behaviours...but rather than
> judge...it may be much better to listen, to learn and to work out the deeper
> rooted hurts and issues that cause people to lose themselves in the worlds
> of pornography, alcohol, sexual relationships etc. It is so important to be
> the kind of Christian that is listening to others with an open attitude and
> no pre-conceived judgements in mind whether they are in the church or not.
> A couple of instances pop into my mind right now...one is from last Saturday
> when I actually popped by my friend's house...co-worker from the bank where
> I work. As we sipped on coffee, her boyfriend/spouse began to talk about
> how he used to go to church in England and considers himself a believer in
> God and Christ but would no longer go to a church anymore because of the
> questions about his relationship with my friend and the fact that they were
> living together. H e began to share his hurts about th is situation and
> then we got into one of the best discussions I've ever had on the book of
> Job. He relates a lot to Job and the judgement his well-meaning friends
> brought to him during a rough time in his life when they should have been
> listening and loving him and not judging him. How wonderful at the end of
> the book when Job not only comes in to a deep trust with God but God also
> invites him to pray for the very friends that incessantly accused him.
> Great victory there and much to be learned from that story. Another
> situation I am reminded of is happening in my church right now with a young
> teenager who is pregnant and has come to our church for shelter. While she
> loves the Lord and clings to His love at this hard time in her life, she is
> also still involved with her boyfriend outside of marriage right now and
> realizes her situations are not perfect. I have just chosen as a y ou th
> ministry leader to walk bes ide her, with no judgments given, and just let
> the Word of the God speak to her and let her make her choices...letting her
> know God's great love just as she is. I feel as if as a church, if we come
> out of the little religious bubble we've allowed ourselves to be in...much
> awaits us. Sure life will not be black and white but it will be interesting
> and beautiful...as diverse as each person's dna and personality is...it is
> in these simply unique ways that God does touch and change each life...not
> in cookie-cutter ways or via textbook answers! I hope this helps
> somewhat...would love to continue the conversation!! All the best to all of
> you...Roll up your sleeves and get into the amazing mix of life with
> others...God will pop up in the most surprising places!! My e-mail address
> is [EMAIL PROTECTED] if any of you care to contact me at a ny
> time! Thank you!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Mail
> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Mail
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail mak es sharing a breeze.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Mail
> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
> you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
> who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> he will be subscribed.
