Apparently you can not control yourself : ( --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I will not ask this question again. Apparently the rightwing cannot > receive the question for some reason (fear expressed in self - > assertion ??) but the question is this: assuming they are going to > hell in due time (a discussion point for another time), what do we do > with these folks IN THE MEAN TIME? Do we continue to patiently deal > with the them, receive them as brethren, teach, pray and work with > them as did Paul with the carnal Christians in Corinth (HH's opinion > aside) or take some of his words of exclusion and impose them onto > all and refuse to help any who cry for help? > .......................................and why. > > I have concluded that radical fundalmentalism cannot answer this > question without sacrifice to aspects of its theology and , so , some > refuse to answer the question. > > jd > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 07:35:58 -0500 "David Miller" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > How do we deal with the subject of carnal Christians? Is there such > a thing? Holy Hubert use to preach that there was no such thing as a > carnal Christian. Does anyone on the list believe like that? Kevin, > you in particular are being asked by JD to tell him how you perceive > 1 Cor. 3:1 and the subject of carnal Christians. Do we talk down to > them, shoot them, tell them to get out of the church, have lunch with > them, ridicule them, what? > > Praise the Lord for Holy Hubert - I knew there was something I had to > be missing. I agree with him on this issue > that's for sure... It is a doctrine cobbled together by men to help > the weak stay weak and I speak from experience > I heard it myself early on and clung to it for a while until I heard > someone preach the truth and expose that darkness. This is how things > get so confused - Paul told that bunch in Corinth they were still > carnal - he did not give them assurance that they would be able to > stand at the end if they did not move on. God isnot going to > take a bunch of devils to heaven with him. Those who walk after the > Spirit are the ones who make it. judyt > > > > From: Kevin Deegan > > JD says "Just remember this -- you do not believe" > > Thanks for reminding me what I believe! > Next time I need to know what I believe on a particular subject I > will check with you FIRST! > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Obviously, this is offered as a criticism. No solutions -- just > criticism. Just remember this -- you do not believe in passages > such as I cor 3:1 and the reality they present. That is what we know > from this thread. > > jd > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > JD says we all know of your theology on the matters cited > > You're all set then: > It should be a piece of cake for you or that matter any other to > summarize my beliefs on the matter, as you say YOU ALL KNOW SINCE YOU > ALL KNOW, I NEED NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME ON THIS! > > If thare are any other issues you have concern for, just check with > yourself since you ALREADY KNOW > > Thanks : ) > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Sounds like a bear with his foot in a trap !! > > It is so easy to set the record straight. You are all over people or > activiity such as the one shared by Lance and his friend, Joanna > Williams, and yet, you now seem to want others to believe that I > have misrepresented you. Not my intention at all. What would you > do differently than Paul and why? Or, would you rather moan for a > while? Get back to me on that , will you? > > Have I not quoted enough of your position on this? Give the word -- > there is more. > > dj > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I see you as standing outside the door of the church rebuking > > Wake UP! > It's just a NIGHMARE! > Or a personal problem... > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Your theology is herein included, Kevin. Now -- Back to I Cor > 3:1ff. It appears (based on what is written) that we have a church > full of carnal and immature people. It is my beleif that if this > were a circumstance in which Joanna Williams could help -- she just > might be doing her best to mentor these folk toward freedom in Christ > and maturity in the Spirit. And that is exactly what Paul is trying > to do with the writing of this Corinthian letter. > > I see you as standing outside the door of the church, rebuking them > to the hell they so richly deserve (don't we all) and doing precious > little to actually help these brethren. They are alive in Christ, > yet carnal -- a circumstance that could work harm in their lives. > This is a church with problems (more than likely a Missionary > Baptist church.) Again, these disciples are alive in Christ, > Christians if you will, but carnal yet in their walk with God. > Actually, Paul deals with this weak fellowship of saints for several > years, does he not -- perhaps three letters or more and a visit or > two. He never recommended they be cut off from the larger church. > > So how does Kevin deal with this Apostolic example? Mock those > who think to do what Paul was doing -- or ????????? I am > curious. Can you answer this? telll us how the reality that is > pictured in I Cor 3:1ff works in your thegology? > > jd > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > No surprise here from the "community" of salve your own conscience > crowd. > God's ways? It my way or the highway! > > SIN #1 > The sin is in doing it our way in direct disobedience to God's > commands. > > SIN #2 > What help was offered has the Fornicator Repented? > The attempt was about as useful as the same attempt to help in a > Emergency room. More damage than help. > > This guy is headed for trouble where was the help? > Comfort for Fornicators? That is a great help! > whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > To imagine that there are those who think it a sin as one attempts to > help those who cry for help demonstrates just how confused we can get > in our individual theologies. > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "Community" Conscience is an EXCUSE for lack of Personal > responsibility & holiness. > Therefore it's overwhelming popularity! > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Much of the effort we see in the posts from friends of Lance is > illustrative of the Charles Sheldon's In His Steps. WWJD came from > this book. It pictures the tension that is too exist between the > corporate body (the church) and the individual. Our assemblage is > designed to offer encouragement as we consider love and good works. > To imagine that there are those who think it a sin as one attempts to > help those who cry for help demonstrates just how confused we can get > in our individual theologies. > > jd > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > it is also not our place to point out people's sins. > > Whatever happened to when you see a brother overtaken in...? > Amazing ignorance of the Bible ignorance of holiness > But then it does say some are willfuly ignorant > > I hope that a seed may have been planted and will take root > eventually and bear fruit. > This tapioca pussyfooting will never reawaken conciousness of sin > > But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be involved > in that entire process. > > O No you have done your part you are a sin enabler. You want to be so > inclusive while God says to be exclusive put them apart. You have > touched the dead thing so much now you have the leaven on you and can > not see it. > But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among > yourselves that wicked person. > > Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joanna Williams > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: March 14, 2006 01:02 > Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 > years speaks on believing teens > > > While I agree completely with what you are saying...it is also not > our place to point out people's sins. May they see righteousness in > our lives and be drawn to a life lived that speaks volumes..much more > that words ever could. Francis of Assissi said well: Preach the > gospel and use words when necessary. The earlier e-mail I sent was > about a couple of encounters...which ended up in some substantial > conversations. I hope that a seed may have been planted and will > take root eventually and bear fruit. But I am not naiive enough to > think that I will see or be involved in that entire process. I must > do my part and then move on in faith, praying and trusting that God > will do that miraculous work of transformation in people's lives that > He always does. I ran a youth group here in Mississauga years ago > where I had a friend of one of our young people from the church show > up stoned out of her mind. I knew that everyone was watching how I > would handle that as a youth leader. It wasn't easy but I wanted her > to stay and did not chide h > er for being out of it...or not listening...or interrupting my lesson > etc.. I continued to invite her out and she continued to > come..sometimes in a mind-altered state. I eventually found out that > she was dating a drug-dealer and as we talked I discovered that her > mother had just become a Christian. She also confessed once in our > group that her mother was her greatest role model and she admired > her! I knew that God was working in the life of this young woman. > One day when I went over to her place to invite her out for coffee, > she couldn't wait to ask me a ton of questions about the Bible, > Jesus, faith etc...We talked for hours that night. It was just > another "coffee"..and yet it wasn't. People change when God wants > them to. She was utterly hungry for truth and probed more and more. > We finally went home and a few days later she not only broke up with > her drug-dealer boyfriend, witnessed to him, started going to church, > gave h er life to God, got baptized, attended Redeemer University and > is now a Christian counsellor. Her > cousins have become Christian through her witness and still contact > me once in a while to get together. Last summer, I had the privilege > of attending her wedding to a wonderful Christian guy. I could go on > and on about many young people like her. I have learned that often > when I am least expecting it people will change. All of our words > and judgements and pointing of sin in their lives is not what draws > them. God's love and us living out that love in our lives draws > them..and they will come to Him in their own time and way. There are > young people out of that exact same youth group that I am still have > "coffees" with! And will continue to...even when they are not > spiritually hungry YET... I feel it is so important to be faithful to > people and pray them into the kingdom...not talk them into it. They > know what I live for and they can see it and that's enough. And I > have th i s feeling that they will know God in their own time. They > are just on a journey of finding how life is empty without Him. It > is during this time that > we must stay faithful to them. Just some thoughts... > Joanna > > > > > From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Joanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years > speaks on believing teens > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:44:40 -0500 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ShieldsFamily > To: [email protected] > Sent: March 12, 2006 08:45 > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years > speaks on believing teens > > > Lance, from the small piece below Id say Joanna has a heart of gold. > I agree that rushing to judgment is one way to chase unbelievers > away, and is not what Jesus did except with those who were religious > hypocrites. First one must love and befriend, as she obviously does. > But, as I told JD, we must also speak truth if we are to be > ambassadors of Christ, just as Jesus did. He loved, He befriended, > but He never hesitated to call sin a sin because He loved those He > befriended enough to want to lead them to freedom from sin, as that > is what ultimately will destroy our relationship with Him. That was > His entire objective in dying on the cross, of course. Tough love is > much harder for us to give than soft love. Tough love isnt harsh > and angry; it is just the kind of love that pulls people towards the > truth, even when it is tempting to gloss over the hard issues. Sin > is the e lephant in the room; do we love people so much that we > pretend it isnt there, or do we really love them enough to address > the obvious? The fleshly Believe > r takes the easy path of just loving and being loved, while the > Spirit-filled Believer uses the truths of the Word to deliver the > captives from sin as well as unbelief. Like being a parent, a > Christian mentor always holds up the goal and then walks with you > towards it. Poor parents are those who give love, love, love, and > never balance that with self-discipline and hard workthe children > are ruined for life by their own selfishness and laziness. Jesus > defined our goal as His disciples: Luke 5: 32 I came not to call the > righteous, but sinners to repentance. That, of course, is the issue I > continually have with those of the liberal Christian > persuasionthey have no fear of sin, for themselves or others. They > dont realize that sin is what truly ails us. This is a hollow gosp > e l that allows many to die in their sins. Izzy > John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall > seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:05 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks > on believing teens > > Well, since I'm being asked for a response on this...my initial > feeling is that we need to live in the real world having contact with > real people...perhaps listen a little more to others and how they > live. In my experience with people, including believers by the way, > struggle with sin is common. By the way, people are so much more > harsh on visible sins such as addictions to alcohol, pornography, > drugs etc....whereas I believe Jesus always looked deeper into our > hearts and spoke to much that was invisible to many...such as > self-righteousness, judgement towards others, jealousies, religious > obsession. etc. These are way harder to weed out of our lives than > outer behaviours that seem to upset the church so much. I pray that > we may see these situations with the heart of God, listening and > dealing with others on a very real level which unfortunately is so > often tucked away and not t alked about enough. We have many hurting > people in our churches who are deeply addicted to many non-christian > behaviours...but rather than judge...it m > ay be much better to listen, to learn and to work out the deeper > rooted hurts and issues that cause people to lose themselves in the > worlds of pornography, alcohol, sexual relationships etc. It is so > important to be the kind of Christian that is listening to others > with an open attitude and no pre-conceived judgements in mind whether > they are in the church or not. A couple of instances pop into my > mind right now...one is from last Saturday when I actually popped by > my friend's house...co-worker from the bank where I work. As we > sipped on coffee, her boyfriend/spouse began to talk about how he > used to go to church in England and considers himself a believer in > God and Christ but would no longer go to a church anymore because of > the questions about his relationship with my friend and the fact that > they were living together. H e began to share his hurts about th is > situation and then we got into one of the best discussions I've ever > had on the book of Job. He relates a lot to Job and the judgement > his well-meaning friends brough > t to him during a rough time in his life when they should have been > listening and loving him and not judging him. How wonderful at the > end of the book when Job not only comes into a deep trust with God > but God also invites him to pray for the very friends that > incessantly accused him. Great victory there and much to be learned > from that story. Another situation I am reminded of is happening in > my church right now with a young teenager who is pregnant and has > come to our church for shelter. While she loves the Lord and clings > to His love at this hard time in her life, she is also still involved > with her boyfriend outside of marriage right now and realizes her > situations are not perfect. I have just chosen as a y ou th ministry > leader to walk bes ide her, with no judgments given, and just let the > Word of the God speak to her and let her make her choices...letting > her know God's great love just as she is. I feel as if as a church, > if we come out of the little religious bubble we've allowed ourselves > to be in...much awaits us. S > ure life will not be black and white but it will be interesting and > beautiful...as diverse as each person's dna and personality is...it > is in these simply unique ways that God does touch and change each > life...not in cookie-cutter ways or via textbook answers! I hope > this helps somewhat...would love to continue the conversation!! All > the best to all of you...Roll up your sleeves and get into the > amazing mix of life with others...God will pop up in the most > surprising places!! My e-mail address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] > if any of you care to contact me at a ny time! Thank you! > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > Yahoo! Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! > > > > > Yahoo! Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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