JT I don't make up things that paint God into any corner
DAVEH: Here's the problem as I see it
Could the disagreement between JT & DH be because Judy believes God CREATED all things while Dave believes in the ORGANIZATION by PHYSICAL LAWS of preexisting matter?
In contrast to the self-sufficient and solitary absolute who creates ex nihilo (out of nothing), the Mormon God did not bring into being the ultimate constituents of the cosmos neither its fundamental matter nor the space/time matrix which defines it. Hence, unlike the Necessary Being of classical theology who alone could not not exist and on which all else is contingent for existence, the personal God of Mormonism confronts
uncreated realities which exist of metaphysical necessity. Such realities include inherently self-directing selves (intelligences), primordial elements (mass/energy), the natural laws which structure reality, and moral principles grounded in the intrinsic value of selves and the requirements for growth and happiness Blake Ostler, "The Mormon Concept of God
How could a finite being create everything and how could such a finite being NOT be subject to the laws of the UNIVERSE to which he is confined? The LDS god exists in a locality confined in time & space.
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Brigham Young Deseret News, Nov.16, 1859, p.290).
"there is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or
pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes" (D&C 131:7).
In view of this quote, DH would you define "spiritual" as IMMATERIAL?
God and you (all intelligences) are CO-ETERNAL
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." D&C 93:29
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive." Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p.245
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't make up things that paint God into any corner;
DAVEH: Here's the problem as I see it, Judy. You seem to think God can do anything, yet he seems to do things the hard way from our perspective. If he could circumvent law, then why did he put his son through the horror of dying on the cross in our behalf? Could not have God simply snapped his fingers to make all right? Could not God have destroyed Lucifer to prevent him from screwing up the world?
Yet God knew all this from before the foundations of the world, and has presented us a plan to save us from Satan. Ponder why God's plan is not simple, but involves a lot of pain and suffering by all mankind. For a God who is all powerful, why need there be any pain and suffering at all? Yes, Screwtape Letters is fantasy, Judy. But IMHO, so are a lot of the things people believe about God.
all He has to do is speak to the rock and it will move just as He spoke the worlds into existence.
DAVEH: Kinda makes one wonder why he allowed his Beloved Son to be crucified. Wouldn't it have been more expedient to just speak his will be done?
Judy Taylor wrote:On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 07:20:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:What is a physical impossibility for God?
DAVEH: Did you ever read the SCREWTAPE LETTERS, Judy? At one point, Screwtape (the devil) tells Wormwood that humans are too quick to attribute their all their ills to him, effectively suggesting that sometime humans give credit to where credit isn't due.The book you refer to DH is the fantasy of CSL, I go to a higher authority which tells me that illness is nota blessing; it also reveals to me who it is that implements the curse but not without God's permission Imight add.
I think the same can be said of God. Sometimes we assume he does things he really doesn't. In this case, by suggesting God can do the impossible might just be painting God into a corner from which he would prefer not to be.How is that DH? I don't make up things that paint God into any corner; I am speaking of things that He hasdone already; things he has recorded in His Word by His Spirit.You asked the question.....What is a physical impossibility for God?........and the obvious answer is that which you have undoubtedly heard before.....Can God create a rock to heavy for him to lift? Would you agree that doing sois a physical impossibility for God, Judy?Only if God were a man with limitations but since He is not a man that He should lie and He is not a man who islimited by fleshly weakness all He has to do is speak to the rock and it will move just as He spoke the worlds into existence.
I prefer to believe God operates within the laws of his creation.His son was born under the Mosaic Law but even He circumvented physical laws constantly by walking on waterand commanding a storm along with rebuking death.Those laws define him and all his creation, and I do not think God could/would break those laws, but is capable of using them in ways of which we are unaware in order to perform miracles that confound his Adversary.God is transcendent DH and his adversary is well aware of who is boss.
Judy Taylor wrote:Just this morning I read this interaction between DaveH and KevinD (I think) ...KD: That is explained by the fire and brimstone imagery that is in reality endless torment.
a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire
DAVEH: More imagery that is physically an impossibility. Fire can be extinguished, whereasmental torment can go on forever.So tell me - What is a physical impossibility for God? The same God who delivered what he hadpromised to Abraham and Sarah when they were 90 and 100yrs old respectively. A God who wasable to roll back the Red Sea until his people crossed and afterward kept them in the desert for 40yrsfeeding them with manna from heaven and keeping their clothes from wearing out and their feet fromswelling. The same God who stopped the sun for 24 hours and caused an axe head to float on waterThe God who energized His prophet causing him to run for 25 miles in front of Jezebels' chariot andhad the ravens feed him while he rested and regrouped in a cave.Tell me - what would be too difficult for a God like this and how can the feeble efforts of man explainHim?On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 07:57:56 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:Conor: Might we hear from you on this? Frame this in whatever fashion suits you.Lance-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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