On 18/10/13 14:01 +0200, Udo Spallek wrote:
> Hello Albert,
> 
> great that you reanimate the discussion.
> 
> Wed, 9 Oct 2013 19:15:29 +0200
> Albert Cervera i Areny <[email protected]>:
> >I've just created a blueprint for it. Your comments will be very
> >welcomed.
> >[1] https://code.google.com/p/tryton/wiki/PartyRelationship
> 
> IIUC the blueprint proposes structural relationships like memberships or
> roll-ups. IMHO the handling of structuring parties without sorting them
> them into persons and (legal/informal) organizations makes the
> later use of the information complicated (See [1] for the aged
> plannings).

I don't see why.

> But more important for me is, relationships could be so much more
> than *just* a structural roll-up of people and organizations.

I don't think the current design is.

> Len Silverston, - the guy from whom we borrowed the conception of the
> actual party model,- proposes already a conception[2][3] for a
> relationship management which introduces *party roles* to relate
> parties in a relationship. His proposed design is not restricted to the
> management of *structural relationships* or just *customer
> relationships*.

We did not always follow it otherwise we will have a Rube Goldberg
machine.

> Len's model is able to handle the traditional
> customer relationships like (see table 1 for the data):
> 
>     "In a Customer-Relationship, Party ACME Company takes the
>     role as a Customer of DEF firm an Internal Organization"

Yes.

> but also to collect information about a competitor:
> 
>      "In a Customer-Relationship, Party Eric is a Customer
>         of Party UVW an (external) Competitor"

And why can't we store it with current design?
The relation type will be "is customer of".
The fact that UVW is a competitor is outside the relation because it is
the relation the current company has with UVW.

> It can be used to describe hierarchical relationships like company
> roll-ups your blueprint also provides,
> 
>     "In a Organization-Rollup-Relationship, Party XYZ is a Subsidiary
>         of Party ABC the Parent Organization"
>     "In a Organization-Rollup-Relationship, Party DEF is a Subsidiary
>         of Party ABC the Parent Organization"

Same here.

> or handle information with different opinions
> 
>     "In Sales-Lead-Relationship, Party Thomas is a Hot-Lead
>         of Party Victor an internal employee"
>     "In Sales-Lead-Relationship, Party Thomas is a Cold-Lead
>         of Party Jack an internal employee"
> 
>     "In a Sale-Chance-Relationship, Party Thomas is a 90%-Chance
>         of Party Victor an internal employee"
>     "In a Sale-Chance-Relationship, Party Thomas is a 10%-Chance
>         of Party Jack an internal employee"

I would prefer to have a percentage field on the relation for such case
instead of predefined value in the relation/role.

> The basic idea of Silverston's conception is to collect
> semantic information the company is interested in separated by 
> relationship types. It is using the "roles" (and role types) the parties
> *take* or *play* in the relationship as the "relators".

I think the error is here. It is only about the point of view of the
company. I think it is more powerful to remove this point of view and be
generic. And later with customization adding the point of view if
needed.

> So for me, either the name 'Relationship' or 'Relation' is much too
> general for the structure-only approach of the blueprint, or the
> functionality misses all the needed parts to build real *semantic*
> relationships.

I think it is excatly the power of this design.

> 
> Table 1:
> 
> ============  ==========  ==========  ===========  ============
> PARTY
> RELATIONSHIP  FROM        FROM        TO           TO
> TYPE NAME     PARTY       ROLE        PARTY        ROLE
> ============  ==========  ==========  ===========  ============
> Customer      ACME        Customer    DEF          Internal
> Relationship  Company                 firm         organization
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Customer      Eric        Customer    UVW          Competitor
> Relationship, 
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Organization  XYZ         Subsidiary  ABC          Parent
> Rollup        firm                    company      Organization
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Organization  DEF         Subsidiary  ABC          Parent
> Rollup        company                 company      Organization
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Sales-Lead    Thomas      Hot-Lead    Victor       internal
>                                                    employee
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Sales-Lead    Thomas      Cold-Lead   Jack         internal
>                                                    employee
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Organization  Customer    Division    DEF          Subsidiary
> Rollup        Service                 firm
>               Division
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Agent         Sell-       Sales       DEF          Internal
> Relationship  Assist.     agent       firm         organization
>               Corp.
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------
> Supplier      Fantastic   Supplier    DEF          Internal
> Relationship  Supplies                firm         organization
> ------------  ----------  ----------  -----------  ------------

I don't see any advantage about the role because the role is contained
in the relation. If we take the above example, they are no cross-mixing
between the possible role and the relationship type.
Indeed for me, in the current proposal, the relation type is the couple
(from role, to role). And the Silverston's relationship type could be a
group of relation type.

-- 
Cédric Krier

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