So back the original point - what has been done to U2.net in the past 2 years, as a var of udt buying from APT I don't know ! - so i, and it looks like this group as well, would like some enlightenment please. I know how MV.NET has come on in leaps and bounds and it would be good to compare.
Thanks Symeon. -----Original Message----- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Land Sent: 13 August 2010 07:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET Tony, You are very good at asserting things about which you have no knowledge, putting forward statements as facts that have no foundation. You and I have never, to the best of my knowledge, met. I know nothing about you other than as a name on this list and I guess you know as little about me. You say "George, you're not a U2.NET user", you know that do you? You say "Please ... get someone with technical insight into this forum" and accuse me of using "marketing rhetoric". Apparently I'm "making the assertion that responses to technical questions suddenly become non-technical when the respondant mentions a for-fee solution", am I? Don't remember doing that. As I say, you don't know me, but I can trade technical U2 credentials with anyone, 27 years starting with RPL on CMC Reality through every variation of mv database, language and most tools you can think of to web based applications built on U2 today. Along the way I've had a significant involvement in three applications that have each sold thousands of seats and generated millions in revenues. Fortunately the third one of those my business partner and I own so today I split my time between leading a development team and the other pressures of running small group of companies. So I'm a developer too, just one that's been fortunate enough to have a lot of commercial success with my products, it is not lack of technical insight that stops me getting involved in a 'nuts and bolts' discussion on these products. It is simply that I don't think this is an appropriate forum to do it, nor do I think it is particularly wise if there is any element of comparison with another product. I'm not commenting on your position, but mine is as a vendor with a declared interest and I don't see vendor comments about the products they sell being welcome here. I don't see others doing it and, other than correcting errors, I'm not about to do it myself. George Land APT Solutions Limited U2 UK Distributor On 13/08/2010 01:49, "Tony Gravagno" <3xk547...@sneakemail.com> wrote: > This discussion is borderline OT but this topic of advertising > comes up often and applies to many here. I think it needs to be > discussed in the context of this mv.NET/U2.NET comparison. > >> From: George Land >> The problem is how you separate opinion from >> advertising and self promotion, how you define the >> line between fair comment and something much more >> serious. > > I can refer you to discussions in the TigerLogic/D3 forum where I > have taken extreme exception to one vendor who chronically posts > responses which have nothing to do with enquiries, simply to > promote his product. He also includes a large, annoying screen > shot of his product in every posting. For him the forum is > nothing but a vehicle for self-promotion and he has no interest > in helping people solve their various business/technical issues. > _That_ is what none of us want, but _that_ is not what happens in > this U2 forum. > > I'm a developer like most others here. I use software, I > recommend tools that I like, and when I really like what I use, I > take the next step to sell it. There are a vast number of > products that I don't like which I don't sell - and many people > here know that I've withdrawn support for software and companies > that don't meet my standards. My positive commentary doesn't get > invalidated as soon as I put my money where my mouth is. On the > contrary, I think my opinion should be given more weight when I > make a serious business investment in products that I use every > day for providing business solutions. > > With regard to mv.NET, the tiny commission my company gets by > selling other companies' products doesn't buy me as a mouthpiece. > People need to evaluate the situation by a different measure when > a user/reseller promotes something they like, compared to when a > company employee talks up their own product. > >> I am biased, I put the words 'U2 UK Distributor' in my >> signature because I own half of the company that >> distributes U2 in the UK. We are one of Rocket's >> largest U2 business partners and we sell U2.NET, we >> don't sell mv.NET. > > And with that in mind, George, you're not a U2.NET user and most > of your arguments here are invalid. Your view is "we are > motivated to sell it, therefore we advocate it", not the other > way around. I have yet to hear a single valid technical point > about why U2.NET should be chosen over mv.NET. There is no room > for empty marketing rhetoric here. Please use your position of > influence to get someone with technical insight into this forum > to tell us in solid technical terms what IBM/Rocket has done to > make U2.NET a viable competitor against other offerings. Does > anyone here find that to be an unreasonable request, despite the > source? > > >> I am also a board member of the U2 user group and >> support the concept that this list is not for >> advertising or self promotion, it is a technical list. > > You're making the assertion that responses to technical questions > suddenly become non-technical when the respondant mentions a > for-fee solution, especially one that they happen to sell. We > need third-party tools and we shouldn't suppress discussion of > the same. Just because the DBMS vendor puts something into the > box doesn't mean it's good, complete, well maintained, or > reasonably priced. Many fine products like MITS and Informer > were created to supplement what's in the box and to add value to > the DBMS platform. If someone asks for BI or reporting and a > response is to take a look at MITS or Informer, does anyone here > choke? If that response comes from an employee of one of the > companies that produces those products, is their response > non-technical and invalid? > > In every response I make in these forums, my intent is to inform > the person making the enquiry of a specific solution to their > business/technical problem. I go further to re-affirm for other > readers (when this applies) that the products I propose solve > many other problems. That last affirmation is both informational > as well as promotional - but one cannot exist without the other > in this context. And yet this forum has an unusual number of > people who seem to be stuck on separating the merits of solutions > from people who provide them. > > In many cases, the best or only people qualified to provided > detailed information about products are the people who develop > and/or support them. This market just isn't big enough to have a > community of people passionate enough about specific tools, > coupled with a deep understanding of the tool details, and yet > outside of the reseller channel. This is one of the reasons why > most of the third-party product forums in this market are > virtually empty. This is simply a fact of life resulting from > our original choice to work with the MV DBMS. People need to > adapt, accept professionals in the DBMS forums, as well as > occasional product-specific queries and responses. > > >> As someone who makes money selling U2.NET I don't >> think it is appropriate for me to do anything more >> than I have, to correct the assertion that U2.NET is >> 'frozen in time'. I'd simply say to anyone looking at >> this stuff to look at them all and make their own mind >> up. >> >> George Land >> APT Solutions Limited >> U2 UK Distributor > > The problem there George is that I've repeatedly asked you to > follow-up on your assertions with technical detail and without > marketing rhetoric, and you have declined a response. How can > anyone make up their own mind without facts? Do we really want > people to waste their time and blindly install either or both > products? No, we want them to get all the facts they ask, and > then they can decide which products they want to evaluate. > > I see my position as a mv.NET distributor differently from your > own. It's my responsibility to understand this product as well > as the competition so that I can sell real solutions to business > problems and not just get a sale because it suits my fiscal > goals. If U2.NET is a better solution for a specific problem, I > will not sell someone mv.NET. (I wish someone here who has heard > me say "mv.NET is not for you" could speak up.) But how do I > know about such things if U2.NET resellers only offer marketing > rhetoric. This is exactly why Bill posted his enquiry to a > public forum in the first place. > > Nuf outta me. > T > > _______________________________________________ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _______________________________________________ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _______________________________________________ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
