I didn't intend to post anything more on this subject but the harsh tone in
the mail below means that I will have to explain myself:

2008/6/13 Onno Benschop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I'm disappointed in this response that suggests having a discussion
> about leadership off-list. This is not a closed process, just because
> people aren't vocal does not mean they aren't interested.


I see no wrong in what I suggested and I see a lot of wrong in keeping
endless theoretical discussions about leadership on this list. It creates a
lot of noise that drowns out any other discussions about what I believe most
of us want to focus on, marketing Ubuntu.

I simply encouraged the people I mentioned to sit down together and come up
with a joint suggestion or two which they can present to this list for
scrutiny and discussion. I also encouraged them to include more people that
show their interest into the discussion.

It's not about closing the process, it can be totally open in a separate
mailinglist, but I think that is up to the participants. It will then be up
to the members of this group to do whatever they want with the proposal.



> A team is a group of people with a common understanding of their aims.
> We had a meeting to achieve a beginning of those aims. As I've said in
> the past, a team in FOSS works by cooperation, common understanding,
> common ground and common goals.


There is no argument in what you are saying, these are all beautiful words
that we all stand behind.  I have also read the meeting summary which I
think establishes a good foundation for further development of the
organisation, well done to everyone who participated in bringing that
forward!

You seem however, judging from your reaction to my proposal and choice in
writing the above, to be of the conviction that a FOSS team always should do
everything together as a big group and that's something I completely
disagree with.

Most progress in FOSS projects is made by dedicated individuals or smaller
groups that temporarily fork off to try something new and then return to the
team with the result which will be scrutinized and either rejected or
accepted, in part or as a whole. The openness of FOSS projects is what makes
this possible and it is an advantage we should embrace by encouraging people
to run with their ideas.



> I understand that there are team-members who do not think we achieved
> much, and that we need to vote on leadership now, but by no means are
> you representative of everyone in the team - least of all me.


I do NOT suggest that we vote for leadership now. Neither do I intend to
criticize the hard work made by many people on this list or the result
thereof. But I joined this list recently in the hope to discuss marketing
and all I can see is long discussions on leadership on a very basic level.

My suggestion is to let those who have ideas on organisation and leadership
to get together and do it somewhere outside this list and come back with
suggestions for our scrutiny. That way they can move their discussion
forward much quicker while we can focus on what we are here for. When they
return with more worked through ideas and suggestions we can lift the
discussion to the next level and talk about the merits and issues of
specific ways of organizing.

(sorry for repeating myself)


> I think it's extremely insulting to this list, to the people who
> actively participated in the meeting and active team members who have
> spent many hours updating wiki's, compiling meeting notes, proofing and
> contributing material.


Please explain in what way I have insulted members of this list. It has
certainly not been my intention. I have recently made a large contribution
of material to this team and therefore consider myself to be part of the
group of people you accuse me of having insulted.

How many others will see this thread, shake their head and go elsewhere
> with their energy?


Let me see, first you say that we should NOT take this discussion off the
list and now you seem to think we should NOT keep it here either? Not trying
to turn your words against you or anything, I'm just honestly a bit confused
about where you stand.

I do agree with what you say about shaking heads and go elsewhere though. I
am shaking my head right now and I'm prepared to go somewhere else with my
energy if it continue like this. ;-)

I hope this explains my position and that I won't have to write anything
more on this subject until some real proposals are presented and up for
discussion.

Regards,
Tord Jansson
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